German Soldiers Don’t Trust Their Battle Rifle

The Article is produced by an anti-military / anti-firearm organization, similar to the articles previously published by German Der Spiegel, which is a media organization well know for similar views. Please consider this when reading their publications.

Back to the G36. Yuma Desert Proving ground tests during he 1990's. 24000 rounds fired with no lubing and no cleaning. Also no parts breakage on the weapon. There is currently no 5.56mm combat rifle in the world that can rival that performance. When using G36 magazines it is the most reliable 5.56mm combat rifle in existence. Period.

Now for the challenges:
The price point given to Hensolt (one of the finest tactical scope and sighting manufactures in the world) to produce the dual sighting system was very, very low. The result, an issued sighting system that left much to be desired. Most of the accuracy issues, wandering zero etc. were due to this poor inexpensive sight.
The fix: solid metal sighting rails to mount high quality sighting systems. One of the best was KAC, producing their small, low metal sight rails with integral flip up metal back up sights. They were in two units and left the area above the charging handle wide open.

Melting / flexing of the polymer receiver: If the G36 is fired on full automatic mode of fire for hundreds and hundreds of rounds with out being allowed to cool there will be problems, as there are with most other combat rifles (melting gas tubes, fore grips catching fire / melting, etc). This has been demonstrated by those in the US firing mag after betaCmag through their G36's or SL8/G36 conversions in rapid succession and then claiming they have experienced melting and wandering zeros. The melting point of the polymer UMP-45 is 2400 rounds fired continuously on fully automatic mode of fire. I do not know what the melting point is on the G36 but would expect it to by much less when firing 5.56mm ammunition.
The fix: when carrying a basic soldiers' load of 210 to 300 rounds, using fire discipline and limiting very high volumes of continuous fully automatic fire.

The G36 is not a match accurate competition rifle. With quality ammunition, a solid metal sight rail and a quality sighting system it is more than combat accurate. Mine will produce 1.5 MOA with good ammunition. My Colt Canada, KAC and HKMR 223 are always consistently more accurate. Reliability of the G36 is unmatched. The G36 Bolt has only 6 lugs, which are substantially bigger than the 7 lugs on the AR15 / M16FOW's and the HK416. I have never heard of a G36 Bolt breaking. There is a massive amount of technology that has been put into the G36 design. It is not completely perfect, but in many regards much better than most other systems. G36's can be suppressed without modification or need of a reduction of gas in their cycle of operation.
Upgrades of the G36 are quite impressive with adjustable stocks & cheek pieces, fore-ends and better, lower solid sight rails.

Rich
 
Brutus said:
Funny that a few European countries with their own home grown 556 rifles have issues.

The UK with their SA80 (SAS/SBS have Canadian Colt carbines, same with Dutch marines and Norwegian Special Forces) and now the German's grief with their G36.

And you don't hear much bragging of the French for their 556 caliber bugle?

The AR platform seems to have finally developed into something more dependable then most other unproven designs IMO.
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Yes, back in the 1980's there was some NATO test (? in Shilo) putting up all the Nato members' small arms up for testing/reliability. The M 16 won--simply because all their teething problems were worked out during Vietnam
 
Dake21 said:
Seems to me every nation complaint about their 556 rifles. The US did in Vietnam, the brits did it when the SA80 came out, the French with their FAMAS, now the German... could it be because of the smaller parts compared to a 762 NATO rifle and the use of plastic instead of wood and metal?
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The Vietnam era M16 suffered from lack of operator training, not fully being developed technically and a change in powder composition, the L85 had massive issues not only in concept but manufacturing quality and the FAMAS is just a pile of junk from its flawed design to the fact it requires special 5.56mm ammo to operate. The current generation of M16/M4/C7/8 weapons are well regarded by operators arround the world.
 
Brutus said:
Funny that a few European countries with their own home grown 556 rifles have issues.

The UK with their SA80 (SAS/SBS have Canadian Colt carbines, same with Dutch marines and Norwegian Special Forces) and now the German's grief with their G36.

And you don't hear much bragging of the French for their 556 caliber bugle?

The AR platform seems to have finally developed into something more dependable then most other unproven designs IMO.
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The C7/8 is used by many more than that. It has become the benchmark for 5.56mm weapons. The SAS trials tested 3 platforms, the G36, Swiss Arms and the C8 SFW. The only platform that successfully passed all the tests was the C8. The C8's were also the only weapons that did not suffer any mechanical failures and did not require barrel changes during the trial. Many of the trial C8's were then issued to UK special ops and sent to Afganastan for operations. Pretty good testimony for a Canadian produced weapon IMHO.
 
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r_taylor said:
The Vietnam era M16 suffered from lack of operator training, not fully being developed technically and a change in powder composition, the L85 had massive issues not only in concept but manufacturing quality and the FAMAS is just a pile of junk from its flawed design to the fact it requires special 5.56mm ammo to operate. The current generation of M16/M4/C7/8 weapons are well regarded by operators arround the world.
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While I'm certainly no expert on the FAMAS a friend of mine whose opinion I respect greatly (a former CF member and RCMP member who went onto instruct at Gunsite in Arizone after leaving the Mounties) had a personally owned FAMAS in the pre C17 era and is consistently effusive in his praise of it. He has said to me that he prefers it to his Tavor as bullpups go though I think his all time favorite is his 5.56 Valmet.
 
The French military runs Norc ammo through the FAMAS exclusively - believe it or not. They purchase the steel cased ammo from China, because the FAMAS chamber eats brass cases and chokes on them. The civilian FAMAS lacks the aggressive fluting of the milspec guns.
 
teddy49 said:
While I'm certainly no expert on the FAMAS a friend of mine whose opinion I respect greatly (a former CF member and RCMP member who went onto instruct at Gunsite in Arizone after leaving the Mounties) had a personally owned FAMAS in the pre C17 era and is consistently effusive in his praise of it. He has said to me that he prefers it to his Tavor as bullpups go though I think his all time favorite is his 5.56 Valmet.
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I did have the opportunity to be issued a FAMAS while working with the French army in the late 80's. To say we (Canadians) were less than impressed by it would be an understatement. The then issued first generation C8 was in our opinion a better carbine in all cases.

The French are replacing it after its disappointing performance in Afganastan. I don't believe they have yet determined its replacement yet.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
The issue with them is
"The rifle’s accuracy opens up after sustained fully-automatic fire, which heats up the barrel, causing the point of impact to shift." And "the rifle’s performance dropped after several hundred rounds were fired during prolonged firefights, making it less useful especially at longer ranges".

So basically issues that have plagued every firearm ever manufactured. Show me a firearm that you fire several hundred rounds through and don't have a POI change. The only ones I can think of are big water cooled WWI MGs and even then they aren't very practical for a issue rifle. The fact they are using 5.56 also makes it less useful at longer ranges (part of the reason Canadians were using some AR-10s, and the Americans updated some M14s).

Overall there really doesn't seem to be much of a issue with the firearm besides the attempt to use one firearm for every situation, which everyone does with everything (eg. why have multiple wrenches that work properly for there size when you can get a adjustable wrench that works for everything, though not as well).
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Kampfhamster said:
The thing is: the G36 was supposed to be a cheap rifle for the big conscript army after the G11 got ####canned. They needed a cheap rifle fast.
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That was the reason.
G3 was overdued to be replaced, Roller-delayed blowback was too expensive and merger of the Heer was a big logistic problem because NVA was in the middle of transition from MPI-KM in 7.62X43 to 5.45X43 when the merger occurred
enefgee said:
The French military runs Norc ammo through the FAMAS exclusively - believe it or not. They purchase the steel cased ammo from China, because the FAMAS chamber eats brass cases and chokes on them. The civilian FAMAS lacks the aggressive fluting of the milspec guns.
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I doubt it. They may purchase their practice ammo to save cost, but it makes no sense to rely on an opposing super power for ammo lifeline.
LeftFootOfDoom said:
from what i've read by people who should know, on here and other sights is that the g36 with its polymer barrel block/extension thing in the rifle, is the issue. The build up of heat from sustained fire supposedly causes warping/shifting of the block which leads to wandering zero that cannot be fixed. IIRC, it might have been kevinb mentioning it here.
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The G36 barrel fit into the plastic receiver with barrel nut threading to plastic receiver threads. From my understanding, that is the problem. (kind of like how M16 testing of non-steel barrel failed during trial)

Gunnerlove said:
Most rifles have issues when introduced to service. That said almost all manufacturers accept these issues and the rifles are improved and those issues go away very quickly.
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They fixed most of the complaints...
buttstock length was switch to C length in G36A2 (Newly manufactured g36 uses a telescoping one with cheekriser)
The current optics involve use of Hendsoldt 3X sight with a picatinny mounted hensoldt red dot sight (as opposed to integrated red dot) -It's now half as bad as the previous generation. KSK runs a special G36 rail that offers more space than C ones.
I doubt the trunion issue can be resolve without updating the receiver since the barrel into plastic socket and threading is the problem. This problem can be observed in less than 100 rounds in 8 minutes from what I recall. Bundeswehr recognized H&K416A5 as G35 bringing possibility that it may be G36's replacement (G36 was a cheap fix after all).
 
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r_taylor said:
I did have the opportunity to be issued a FAMAS while working with the French army in the late 80's. To say we (Canadians) were less than impressed by it would be an understatement. The then issued first generation C8 was in our opinion a better carbine in all cases.

The French are replacing it after its disappointing performance in Afganastan. I don't believe they have yet determined its replacement yet.
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Really too bad the story of the famas. The French usually make pretty damn good firearms. The MAS 49 is still in use on the battlefield in Syria.
 
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i was issued a Famas may many years ago as the frf1. the Famas F1 started with some issues like the magazine only 25 rounds , then the bolt then his twist 1:12 ... and needed a perfect regular cleaning. never seen an outside plastic part broke. then fire selector one shot or full auto you can with another selector go for three shots ... of course if we add the grenade launcher sights ... you need an engineer degree to operate it ... i start to use a mas 49 56 and it was so easy to operate but the famas was the tool to use.

one of the great way was the left handed capability but was forbidden to operate in missions only for training purpose ...

never used the f2 or other versions so can t say a word.

they re using now ammo coming from Israel and UAE (rafale is not helping the case lol), i was using ammo made in France by GIAT with steel made for the brass, now they re made with alloy ... from what i ve understood.

but elite units are getting the hk416. some others are using colt m4, hk g3, sig 551 and still the famas ...
 
Hmmm... could there soon be a stock of surplus G36 available? They don't seem to be listed as prohibited/restricted (unlike the G3, G11 and HK33) and the standard 480 mm barrel would make them non-restricted...
 
Grawfr said:
Hmmm... could there soon be a stock of surplus G36 available? They don't seem to be listed as prohibited/restricted (unlike the G3, G11 and HK33) and the standard 480 mm barrel would make them non-restricted...
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This is what I was thinking, we could support our German allies not just with our prayers and bumper stickers, but also our credit cards. Somebody could CNC the plastic thing that goes up out of aluminium, and we would be good to go.
Demonical said:
ht tp://www.dw.de/german-defense-minister-says-no-future-for-g36-rifles-in-bundeswehr/a-18399209
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"The weapon's capacity to hit targets fell to 30 percent when the surrounding temperature reached 30 degrees Celsius (86 Fahrenheit) or when the weapon became hot through constant use, the report said."

 Not a problem in Canada. Win-Win!


 
yingtsay said:
*snip*
The G36 barrel fit into the plastic receiver with barrel nut threading to plastic receiver threads. From my understanding, that is the problem. (kind of like how M16 testing of non-steel barrel failed during trial)
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This isn't correct.

There is a large steel Trunnion block that is threaded to accept the barrel, this part however acts as a heat sink for the barrel heat and is embedded into the plastic. The original engineering specs of the G36 had steel guide rails along the length of the rifle, and IIRC one along the top attaching to the optics mount. In this case, even under sustained fire the G36 would retain optic zero and accuracy... However the German Army refused to budge on the weight requirements for the rifle, so HK began stripping metal components from the design and relying on the Carbon fibre filler used with the plastic. Unfortunately this lead to the rifle suffering from accuracy issues when used under sustained automatic fire.

Grawfr said:
Hmmm... could there soon be a stock of surplus G36 available? They don't seem to be listed as prohibited/restricted (unlike the G3, G11 and HK33) and the standard 480 mm barrel would make them non-restricted...
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Uhh, except the fact that they're select fire rifles.
 
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