IMR 4198 ignition problems

[Polar_Hunter]

The 8th edition of "Cartridges of the World" list IMR 4198 as powder used for the .577 Snider. I loaded up a few to try and the primer went off but the powder didn't ignite, it just turned from the silver grey color to a golden brown.

Any tips or suggestions?

 

[Ganderite]

4198 is not a difficult powder to ignite. I guess it was a small charge of powder and a lot of empty space?

If it was me, I would try a hotter primer (magnum) and if that did not work, some pillow stuffing for filler.

Can you seat the bullet deeper?

 

[BCRider]

I've had great luck with H4198 in .38-55 cartridges. I'm using 19 grains which roughly fills the casing to about half way or just shy of that. This lights off just fine with a regular large rifle primer.

But the Snider is more like a big trash can to the long tube of the .38-55 though. So how much powder are you using? I'd guess that with that much casing volume that you'll want to run with a little more powder than what I'm using.

 

[Fargone4sure]

4198 can be hard to light if you have to much spare case capacity. It isn't a great powder for these applications. But as already mentioned, try a magnum primer, and perhaps some pillow stuffing to hold the powder onto the primer. If you go the pillow stuffing route, use enough to hold the powder and to fill the case to the bottom of the bullet. But don't crush it into the case, it should be reasonably fluffy still. Also, dryer lint works, but might not be great shooting arround dried grass. More importantly, when you get this phenomenon, it is only one step away from a secondary detonation, so be careful. The pillow stuffing should prevent this though.
The best solution is likely to switch to a quicker burning powder. Ive had good results with SR4759 and 2400 in 45-70, but don't know if they are workable in 577 without checking appropriate reloading data.
Also, 4198 (and probably other powders) will do this if is spoiled, usually from being exposed to air over a period of time, ei: left in a powder measure for extended periods.

 

[sunray]

Pillow stuffing is feathers or foam. snicker. You can get Dacron or the like in any fabric shop though. Or make some cardboard wads.

 

[mbogo3]

I use magnum primers in my CZ527 7.62x39 with IMR 4198 and groups were cut in 1/2 over standard primers.........Harold

 

[Ganderite]

I use magnum primers in my CZ527 7.62x39 with IMR 4198 and groups were cut in 1/2 over standard primers.........Harold

Now that is interesting. I use 4198 in 7.62x39....

 

[Polar_Hunter]

4198 can be hard to light if you have to much spare case capacity. It isn't a great powder for these applications. But as already mentioned, try a magnum primer, and perhaps some pillow stuffing to hold the powder onto the primer. If you go the pillow stuffing route, use enough to hold the powder and to fill the case to the bottom of the bullet. But don't crush it into the case, it should be reasonably fluffy still. Also, dryer lint works, but might not be great shooting arround dried grass. More importantly, when you get this phenomenon, it is only one step away from a secondary detonation, so be careful. The pillow stuffing should prevent this though.
The best solution is likely to switch to a quicker burning powder. Ive had good results with SR4759 and 2400 in 45-70, but don't know if they are workable in 577 without checking appropriate reloading data.
Also, 4198 (and probably other powders) will do this if is spoiled, usually from being exposed to air over a period of time, ei: left in a powder measure for extended periods.

27 gr of IMR 4198 with felt wads to hold it in place. I used the same process with 12 gr of Unique and they worked great. The problem is that I only have a very small amount of Unique left. I have lots of 2400 but haven't found loading data for large capacity cartridges or shotgun shells.

 

[Andy]

Even though "it's dangerous!", "stupid!" and impossible for a whole host of other reasons to some people, many people have used smokeless for many years in the Snider without incident. You just need to be careful and not be an idiot about it. That said, I got a whole lot of Snider shooters choking on their ascots when I did that, lived and posted about it.

I did the whole smokeless in the 577 Snider things about 10 years ago, using both a 480 gr Conical and 325 gr 0.600" Round Ball. I tried H4198, H4227, SR4759 and Unique. The only one that ignited reliably, and was not position sensitive was Unique. I used 15.0 grs and got about 1100 fps consistently at the low pressures I employed (~12,000 psi) - the slower powders tended to just spit out the bullet along with mostly unburned powder, as the pressure was too low for them to burn reliably.

Unique - 15.0 grs - 1050 fps
SR4759 - 35.0 grs - 1100 fps
AA5744 - 35.0 grs - 1100 fps
H4227 - 35.0 grs - 1100 fps

In such a large case with a large bore and low operating pressure, only fast pistol powders will work well IMO. Unique, Red Dot, Bullseye, Trail Boss and the like. You'll be looking at 1100 fps or less depending on the powder used.

 

[H4831]

27 gr of IMR 4198 with felt wads to hold it in place. I used the same process with 12 gr of Unique and they worked great. The problem is that I only have a very small amount of Unique left. I have lots of 2400 but haven't found loading data for large capacity cartridges or shotgun shells.

Since you have lots of 2400, for sure that is what I would use for the 577.
From my unscientific uses of various powders, I have found 2400 to be slower than Unique but faster than 4198.
A load for the 577 would likely be somewhere between the 12 grains of Unique and 27 grains of 4198, that you have used. I would start at maybe 14 grains of 2400 and work up from there.

 

[Polar_Hunter]

Thanks fellows.

 

[Andy]

Since you have lots of 2400, for sure that is what I would use for the 577.
From my unscientific uses of various powders, I have found 2400 to be slower than Unique but faster than 4198.
A load for the 577 would likely be somewhere between the 12 grains of Unique and 27 grains of 4198, that you have used. I would start at maybe 14 grains of 2400 and work up from there.

I have found Alliant 2400 as being quite similar to both SR4759 and AA5744 in Burn Rate (just a bit faster), so I'm thinking that even 27 grains would likely just be spit out mostly unburnt. When I loaded smokeless for the Snider, I stuck to "shotgun pressures", i.e. down near 10K psi, and did my load development in the 24 ga Fiocchi plastic hulls. Those hulls are very weak relative to brass cartridges and let you know very quickly if the pressure got up much past the 10K psi for which they were designed. I'd see the thin brass base become deformed and that was my signal to stop. With those faster powders, I found that they just don't work at the low pressures required and so had to abandon their use. IMO, it's shotgun powders that should be the focus when loading smokeless in the Snider.

 

[Polar_Hunter]

I have found Alliant 2400 as being quite similar to both SR4759 and AA5744 in Burn Rate (just a bit faster), so I'm thinking that even 27 grains would likely just be spit out mostly unburnt. When I loaded smokeless for the Snider, I stuck to "shotgun pressures", i.e. down near 10K psi, and did my load development in the 24 ga Fiocchi plastic hulls. Those hulls are very weak relative to brass cartridges and let you know very quickly if the pressure got up much past the 10K psi for which they were designed. I'd see the thin brass base become deformed and that was my signal to stop. With those faster powders, I found that they just don't work at the low pressures required and so had to abandon their use. IMO, it's shotgun powders that should be the focus when loading smokeless in the Snider.

I appreciate your insights on this, which shotgun powder would you recommend?

 

[Andy]

I appreciate your insights on this, which shotgun powder would you recommend?

...In such a large case with a large bore and low operating pressure, only fast pistol powders will work well IMO. Unique, Red Dot, Bullseye, Trail Boss and the like. You'll be looking at 1100 fps or less depending on the powder used.

As I stated above.

"Shotgun" and "Pistol" powders are pretty much the same thing. I'd go with Unique if it could be found, but look at some load tables and you'll get the idea. My recommended maximum of 15.0 grs of Unique will provide for over 400 loads, so it will last a long time.

I know that powder is scarce for the time being, but IMO there's no way that IMR-4198 will work in the 577 Snider - it's too slow and requires a higher than acceptable minimum pressure to operate in the Snider.

 

[Tinman204]

I tend to agree with the thoughts that 4198 I'd too slow for the snider.

I use it in 43 mauser at 28 grains with some dacron filler to fill the remaining space. Non magnum powders do the job nicely with that load.

 

[doc25]

I think the smokeless ml guys are using duplex loads when using 4198. They're having ignition problems as well. Unfortunately 4759 is discontinued. Once again from the smokeless ml perspective I believe imr 4227, vihtavouri 110, aa XML-5744 and Alliant 2400 may be substitutions. I'm just offering this info from a smokeless ml view. Do not try this without consulting someone with more knowledge than me on powder selection.

 

[Polar_Hunter]

Well the 2400 was a bust as well. It doesn't like the large case either. On the good side the Winchester 452 AA (which seems to be the same as Winchester WST) seems to work very well. Just got to work up my load a little.

https://youtu.be/ES_9Suu7F8Y