Hollow Point Hunting???

Brian46 said:
Why? The 450 Bushmaster uses a .452 diameter bullet just like a 45 pistol yet has been used successfully on many types of large game

The pic is of Remingtons premier line which resembles the Gold sabre pistol rounds in a copper jacket with an added plastic tip
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Based on what I know of bullet performance, I'll stick to my assertion. All bullets have an optimal velocity performance envelope they operate within. Rifle bullets tend to loose performance when the impact velocity drops below 1700 fps, and jacketed pistol bullet terminal performance tends to become questionable when velocity exceeds 1700 fps. Let's consider the Hornady .452/240 gr XTP fired at 2300 fps, which is the highest velocity loading of the cartridge I could find. If you shoot a big animal with that load, the bullet will expand until there is no shank left for the bullet to rotate around. With no linear index, straight line penetration is lost, and the bullet follows the path of least resistance, so terminal performance suffers. That said the 240 gr XTP is a miserable game bullet even when fired from a handgun, and is at its best when fired at a 1000 fps as a self defence load. But don't take my word for it, do your own testing and report back.
 
ironsighter said:
I see you don't save all your know-it-all attitude for the folks over at HBC.

Spend some time reading Nathan Foster's research, then go out and test various projectiles in hundreds of calibers, on many thousands of animals, and then create your own database of this information. At that point, you will be in a position to make authoritative statements - but you still won't know everything.
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Did Nathan Foster demonstrate that expanding bullets can go too fast to expand? Interesting.
 
ironsighter said:
. . .
Spend some time reading Nathan Foster's research, then go out and test various projectiles in hundreds of calibers, on many thousands of animals, and then create your own database of this information. . . .
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I've got all of Nathan Foster's books, and I've examined much of the terminal performance information he's posted on his web site. Can you provide the book and page number or where on his web page he suggests that high velocity impacts of an expanding game bullet fails to produce rapid expansion? I must have missed it. While I disagree (slightly) with Gate's assertion that velocity always increases expansion (of bullet that is designed to upset), I will say that high velocity impacts result in faster expansion of those bullets. Solid shank bullets like the TSX, North Fork, Rhino, and Woodleigh, among others, having attained full expansion, always leave an exposed shank so that it's linear index is not lost, and straight line penetration is assured. With a bullet having a full length lead core, it's linear index might be lost where expansion exceeds two-thirds of the bullet's length, unless the bullet has a design feature to limit the length of that expansion, such as a tapered jacket, duel cores, a single core made of different hardnesses, or a partition separating two cores.
 
Boomer said:
I've got all of Nathan Foster's books, and I've examined much of the terminal performance information he's posted on his web site. Can you provide the book and page number or where on his web page he suggests that high velocity impacts of an expanding game bullet fails to produce rapid expansion? I must have missed it. While I disagree (slightly) with Gate's assertion that velocity always increases expansion (of bullet that is designed to upset), I will say that high velocity impacts result in faster expansion of those bullets. Solid shank bullets like the TSX, North Fork, Rhino, and Woodleigh, among others, having attained full expansion, always leave an exposed shank so that it's linear index is not lost, and straight line penetration is assured. With a bullet having a full length lead core, it's linear index might be lost where expansion exceeds two-thirds of the bullet's length, unless the bullet has a design feature to limit the length of that expansion, such as a tapered jacket, duel cores, a single core made of different hardnesses, or a partition separating two cores.
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You've hit the nail on the head. Higher velocity results in *faster* expansion, not "greater" expansion. The part that seems to be missed by many is that the resistance met by the projectile is a critical factor in the *amount* of expansion. All else being equal, a bullet will expand less in a lighter-bodied animal than a heavy-bodied one. In extreme cases, if the momentum of the bullet dramatically exceeds the met resistance then the bullet may expand very little (regardless of how "fast" it expands) and result in an injured animal or a slower death. Nathan's work is full of such statements. It follows that if the bullet design, weight and velocity are unmatched to the game animal, extra velocity will not "always increase the amount of expansion".

If there is one thing that I have learned from Mr. Foster; there is no "always" in terminal ballistics.

BTW, this is why I support Ih8sks's statement on page 2 and 45ACPKing's described experience. I have seen the result of using "controlled expansion" and monometal bullets at close range and high velocities. 2 seasons ago I put a 130 grain Trophy Copper through a small mule buck at less than 20 yards (so, about 3000fps). The exit wound was no bigger than the entry wound. The deer was stone dead in a matter of seconds, and dropped on the spot, but that had everything to do with shot placement and nothing to do with velocity, or expansion, or anything else.
 
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Take any expanding bullet and fire it at the same medium at high and low velocity. The higher velocity bullet will expand faster and /or more than the lower velocity one.

Velocity aids in expansion. Velocity does not inhibit expansion.

"Too fast to expand" does not exist.
 
Gatehouse said:
Take any expanding bullet and fire it at the same medium at high and low velocity. The higher velocity bullet will expand faster and /or more than the lower velocity one.

Velocity aids in expansion. Velocity does not inhibit expansion.
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This is only true if the medium offers enough resistance to initiate expansion. If the medium does not have sufficient resistance, then higher velocities simply result in more energy being dumped into the landscape behind the medium.

"Too fast to expand" does not exist.
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I don't recall anyone saying that it does.
 
Gatehouse said:
Why wouldn't they expand at under 100 yards?
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He obviously has no comprehension as to how velocity effects expansion. I am amazed just how many people don't understand that more velocity results in more expansion. Some people still have the silly idea that a bullet can be driven too fast to expand. I couldn't help but laugh when I overheard someone telling his buddy that a bullet didn't expand because it was going too fast, and didn't have time to expand. He claimed that if the deer was farther away, the bullet would have shed some velocity, so it would have expanded more. I don't know where people come up with such nonsense.
 
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Boomer said:
I've got all of Nathan Foster's books, and I've examined much of the terminal performance information he's posted on his web site. Can you provide the book and page number or where on his web page he suggests that high velocity impacts of an expanding game bullet fails to produce rapid expansion? I must have missed it. While I disagree (slightly) with Gate's assertion that velocity always increases expansion (of bullet that is designed to upset), I will say that high velocity impacts result in faster expansion of those bullets. Solid shank bullets like the TSX, North Fork, Rhino, and Woodleigh, among others, having attained full expansion, always leave an exposed shank so that it's linear index is not lost, and straight line penetration is assured. With a bullet having a full length lead core, it's linear index might be lost where expansion exceeds two-thirds of the bullet's length, unless the bullet has a design feature to limit the length of that expansion, such as a tapered jacket, duel cores, a single core made of different hardnesses, or a partition separating two cores.
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For the most part I agree with you about attaining " full expansion" but here's an interesting example.

A friend borrowed my 300WSM with 130gr TTSX @3500fps to shoot a big black bear, well over 6 ft. The bear was uphill, and standing looking at us. Normally I'm not a big fan of this shot but the range was close and it appeared the bear was going to check us out and hurriedly depart.

The shot hit the chest just under the neck, knocked the bear down. A follow up broadside shot finished it.

Upon dissection and skinning it was found that the first bullet hit the top of the chest/ breastplate area, travelled through and hit the spine where it traveled up the neck, and finally got stuck against a jaw bone.

The bullet was just a tiny shank and smooth expanded front, almost pancake flat. So while most times you see fully expanded Barnes that look like the ads, or maybe the shank without petals, in this case high velocity (and hitting lots of heavy bone at a funny angle) DID cause greater expansion. :)
 
ironsighter said:
This is only true if the medium offers enough resistance to initiate expansion. If the medium does not have sufficient resistance, then higher velocities simply result in more energy being dumped into the landscape behind the medium.



I don't recall anyone saying that it does.
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Let's just say the medium is a big game animal, and not a piece of paper. :)

If the bullet isn't going to expand at high velocity, it's not going to expand at low velocity.
 
Boomer said:
Based on what I know of bullet performance, I'll stick to my assertion. All bullets have an optimal velocity performance envelope they operate within. Rifle bullets tend to loose performance when the impact velocity drops below 1700 fps, and jacketed pistol bullet terminal performance tends to become questionable when velocity exceeds 1700 fps. Let's consider the Hornady .452/240 gr XTP fired at 2300 fps, which is the highest velocity loading of the cartridge I could find. If you shoot a big animal with that load, the bullet will expand until there is no shank left for the bullet to rotate around. With no linear index, straight line penetration is lost, and the bullet follows the path of least resistance, so terminal performance suffers. That said the 240 gr XTP is a miserable game bullet even when fired from a handgun, and is at its best when fired at a 1000 fps as a self defence load. But don't take my word for it, do your own testing and report back.
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Hornadys own specs for the .452 bullet used in the 450 bushmaster ammo disagrees with you.
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.452-250-gr-FTX-for-450-Bushmaster/

It would appear that not all .452 diameter bullets are created equal
 
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stubblejumper said:
He obviously has no comprehension as to how velocity effects expansion. I am amazed just how many people don't understand that more velocity results in more expansion. Some people still have the silly idea that a bullet can be driven too fast to expand. I couldn't help but laugh when I overheard someone telling his buddy that a bullet didn't expand because it was going too fast, and didn't have time to expand. He claimed that if the deer was farther away, the bullet would have shed some velocity, so it would have expanded more. I don't know where people come up with such nonsense.
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I really don't think that's what Ih8sks was saying at all. There is much misunderstanding of each other in this thread.

What Ih8sks is saying (and I agree with) is that some bullets are simply too stout (designed for controlled expansion and/or deeper penetration on large game) to perform admirably on light-bodied game. This is the case regardless of how fast the projectile in question is moving.

The assumed "rules" of expansion are only relevant if the projectile meets appropriate resistance.
 
ironsighter said:
I really don't think that's what Ih8sks was saying at all. There is much misunderstanding of each other in this thread.

What Ih8sks is saying (and I agree with) is that some bullets are simply too stout (designed for controlled expansion and/or deeper penetration on large game) to perform admirably on light-bodied game. This is the case regardless of how fast the projectile in question is moving.

The assumed "rules" of expansion are only relevant if the projectile meets appropriate resistance.
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Considering 270gr TSX bullets that are suitable for Buffalo expand just fine on light game like deer and black bear, I think we have got lots of leeway for appropriate resistance. :)
 
Gatehouse said:
Let's just say the medium is a big game animal, and not a piece of paper. :)
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So, a WT doe? Or, maybe a bull elk?

Many bullets will perform very diffidently on these two animals. A Barnes TSX may be the perfect medicine for the elk, but may fly right through the WT doe with a narrow wound channel. Higher velocity will be a benefit the case of the elk, but in the case of the WT doe it is irrelevant.

If the bullet isn't going to expand at high velocity, it's not going to expand at low velocity.
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Nobody said it would.
 
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Gatehouse said:
Considering 270gr TSX bullets that are suitable for Buffalo expand just fine on light game like deer and black bear, I think we have got lots of leeway for appropriate resistance. :)
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Do they? Odd how many hunters are finding monometal projectiles like TSX failing to expand on light game. Mr. Foster puts huge emphasis on game size and weight and what bullets are most appropriate. Many other respected writers and researchers do as well.

I suppose we'll simply have to agree to disagree. In the meantime, for your reading pleasure: ht tp://www.chuckhawks.com/terminal_ballistics_bs.htm
 
An anecdote about the speed/fast kills thing.

Not my personal experince, but relayed to me buy an old fellow I've known for decades, who's buddy, many years ago, used to shoot large numbers of dump bears with his old .303 British. Well, this worked fine, but one day he upgraded to a fancy new .300 norma mag, as he had heard it would be better, as many of the dump bears he was killing were grizzles. Well, after one summer he switched back to the old .303, as he found the Norma Mag consistently resulted in bears running off and going a lot farther than the .303 ever did (before dying, of course).
 
Northman999 said:
An anecdote about the speed/fast kills thing.

Not my personal experince, but relayed to me buy an old fellow I've known for decades, who's buddy, many years ago, used to shoot large numbers of dump bears with his old .303 British. Well, this worked fine, but one day he upgraded to a fancy new .300 norma mag, as he had heard it would be better, as many of the dump bears he was killing were grizzles. Well, after one summer he switched back to the old .303, as he found the Norma Mag consistently resulted in bears running off and going a lot farther than the .303 ever did (before dying, of course).
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Nathan Foster - I actually refer to his stuff quite regularly in regards to bullets or cartridges I am considering. I like him because he isn't a sales rep for anyone, so to speak. I do think he can significantly under-represent the effectiveness of cartridges overall however, often reccomending a cartridge for game weighing 120 lbs (for example), when guys are actually out there shooting caribou and moose with that same load, and not having any problems. You just need to keep that in mind when reading his stuff, and you're okay, however.

oops, looks like I quoted myself instead of adding to...
 
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