30/06 reloading problem (solved ) :)

[skneub]

Thanks for your reply. I have been loading that same bullet, Hornady 180 grain Spire Point, in a 30-06 yesterday and today and testing at the range.
I am loading it to test the rifle as I work on bedding it. I load them full power with IMR4350, a very reliable load for a 30-06. I have been seating them to the depth of the crimping groove and they go in the chamber fine.
Also, no reason why they won't be very accurate seated at that depth.

Thanks again H4831 I loaded 40 rounds and fired all of them today.
Minor issue with 3-4 of them having the primer set deep , or perhaps a gun malfunction , not sure yet(Light strikes) was able to get all but one to fire.
I will pull that one apart for the bullet and powder.

Bought a good case trimmer today as well , to address any excess length issues

Manuals don't give a min overall length. Just max.
Your case lengths are too long and need trimming. Max case length is 2.494". Trim-to is 2.484". Don't forget to chamfer and deburr.
You don't need a Hornady manual at all. Lots of 180 grain IMR4064 data on Hodgdon's site. 45.0 to 48.7.

The cases were over spec , but chambered very easy.

I disagree with the no book has min length , it is likely a very serious proofreading error......

 

[shorttrac]

Not sure why 3.30" would be a min length? Makes no sense. Likely max would be my guess or maybe that's the length they loaded them to. Either way 3.30-3.34" max leaves very little to work with. I would ignore this and go by factory length or do as H4831 suggested and use the grove or just set them so they chamber reliably and feed well. Hodgons loading manual uses similar values but calls them COAL not "min COAL" meaning they used this overall length.

 

[skneub]

Not sure why 3.30" would be a min length? Makes no sense. Likely max would be my guess or maybe that's the length they loaded them to. Either way 3.30-3.34" max leaves very little to work with. I would ignore this and go by factory length or do as H4831 suggested and use the grove or just set them so they chamber reliably and feed well. Hodgons loading manual uses similar values but calls them COAL not "min COAL" meaning they used this overall length.

That's what I did

 

[zthou]

try painting your bullet with a magic marker or layout blue dye like they use in a machine shop paint on or spray on. you will clearly see traces of the lands making contact with the bullet in the ogive area. adjust your depth on your seating die accordingly and you are off to the races. if you are loading for hunting purposes then try to stay off those lands about .010" (you want your cartridge feeding to be the same every time when you have that Boone and Crockett buck in your scope). if you are going for the gold at a match then you will have to experiment a bit with that. Some of the mass produced factory bullets that we buy to save money have slight variations in overall length with good quality callipers. good luck

 

[skneub]

try painting your bullet with a magic marker or layout blue dye like they use in a machine shop paint on or spray on. you will clearly see traces of the lands making contact with the bullet in the ogive area. adjust your depth on your seating die accordingly and you are off to the races. if you are loading for hunting purposes then try to stay off those lands about .010" (you want your cartridge feeding to be the same every time when you have that Boone and Crockett buck in your scope). if you are going for the gold at a match then you will have to experiment a bit with that. Some of the mass produced factory bullets that we buy to save money have slight variations in overall length with good quality callipers. good luck

I like this idea as well

Factory loads for hunting , till I get this down lol

Would suck to hear click.....with my moose or elk in my sights

 

[H4831]

On the length of the case, too long is important because if the case is longer than the start of the taper in the chamber where the neck size changes to bullet size, it can squeeze the bullet in, resulting in much higher than normal pressure.
How much the case stretches, or grows with shooting, depends on the cartridge. Straight wall cases don't stretch, while a case with a large volume with smallish diameter bullet, could get to dangerous lengths in as little as two firings.
A 243 grows pretty fast and I trim to length after only two, or at the most three firings.
A 270 will stretch with shooting about twice the rate of a 30-06. I have probably got six or eight loadings and firings from a 30-06 without trimming, as long as I have been checking the length, to see that it is not getting dangerous.
Don't worry about minimum length of the cartridge case. As long as there is enough neck to hold the bullet, you are good to go!
We often sized 30-06 brass down to 270, to get the 270 cases. The sized 30-06 case to 270 will be about .1" shorter than standard 270 cases, but that is no problem and they will grow back to where they need to be trimmed after a few shots.

 

[skneub]

On the length of the case, too long is important because if the case is longer than the start of the taper in the chamber where the neck size changes to bullet size, it can squeeze the bullet in, resulting in much higher than normal pressure.
How much the case stretches, or grows with shooting, depends on the cartridge. Straight wall cases don't stretch, while a case with a large volume with smallish diameter bullet, could get to dangerous lengths in as little as two firings.
A 243 grows pretty fast and I trim to length after only two, or at the most three firings.
A 270 will stretch with shooting about twice the rate of a 30-06. I have probably got six or eight loadings and firings from a 30-06 without trimming, as long as I have been checking the length, to see that it is not getting dangerous.
Don't worry about minimum length of the cartridge case. As long as there is enough neck to hold the bullet, you are good to go!
We often sized 30-06 brass down to 270, to get the 270 cases. The sized 30-06 case to 270 will be about .1" shorter than standard 270 cases, but that is no problem and they will grow back to where they need to be trimmed after a few shots.

Nice explanation of why it is important

I got a Lyman universal trimmer this afternoon , I like it so far.
Set it up and it seems to do the job pretty easy .

I sure wish I had picked up all the guys bullets at Dawson gun show...
20$ a box...
next time I will clean them out on a deal like that lol

 

[Boomer]

Haven't time to read it all, but I have said it so often on here, ABSOLUTELY IGNORE THE COAL, AS GIVEN IN ANY RELOADING MANUAL.
Seat the bullets deep enough so the bolt will close. Period. End of the story.
That Hornady bullet you are using, with the cannalure crimping ring, just seat it to the groove, but don't crimp, if you are using a bolt action rifle.

I agree with Bruce completely except for the part about crimping. Done correctly, and as an individual step from bullet seating, crimping has a positive rather than a negative influence, as it uniforms the bullet pull weight when cartridge necks might vary in hardness and when the bullet is seated so the cartridge will run through the magazine, but isn't long enough to touch the lead. The problem is that many novices and some experienced handloaders alike, don't crimp correctly, so the advantage is lost, and the extreme velocity spread increases, and problems with concentricity arise. Until you get your loads so that they chamber without resistance, maybe follow his advice, seat to the crimping groove, without crimping.

 

[H4831]

I agree with Bruce completely except for the part about crimping. Done correctly, and as an individual step from bullet seating, crimping has a positive rather than a negative influence, as it uniforms the bullet pull weight when cartridge necks might vary in hardness and when the bullet is seated so the cartridge will run through the magazine, but isn't long enough to touch the lead. The problem is that many novices and some experienced handloaders alike, don't crimp correctly, so the advantage is lost, and the extreme velocity spread increases, and problems with concentricity arise. Until you get your loads so that they chamber without resistance, maybe follow his advice, seat to the crimping groove, without crimping.

It is good that we don't always agree and with the complexity of shooting and making ammunition, there are bound to be discrepancies between methods used and results obtained.
About the time I was starting to reload I used to borrow a book from the library by the British Military, showing the great many experiments they had made with their newly developed 303 cartridge, prior to WW1.
In one experiment they wanted to know the effect of barrel length on performance. So, starting with a full length barrel in the Lee Enfield, they would cut off inch at a time and note the performance.
They kept shortening the barrel until, as they stated, when they chambered a round, the front of the bullet stuck out!
They then said something to the effect that they were amazed to find out when they fired the round, that the front part of the bullet that stuck out of the barrel, had expanded and was larger diameter than it had been before it was fired!
They said this proved that when a cartridge was fired, the rear of the bullet started to move before the front of the bullet moved.
With that proven experiment, carried out by the British military, my common sense mind went to work. If the reaction is so violent when the powder is ignited, that the rear of the bullet moves ahead before the point of the FMJ bullet starts to move, how could a miniscule bit of pressure from crimping have any effect, whatsoever, on the starting of the bullet?
From my reloading I have never had any indication that crimping, or tightness of the bullet in the neck, did indeed have any affect on the bullets flight.
I have sometimes seated a bullet, only to find that it went in extra easy and examination showed a crack in the neck which I hadn't seen. I have fired such a cartridge into a bench rest group and saw no difference in the bullets POI.
I think once I even chronographed such a loose fitting bullet and found no difference in the velocity from the others, but I don't see notes of that event.
So there you go and Boomer, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on crimping!

 

[kamlooky]

Sorry Mr. H, I'm with Boomer on crimping with a separate die.
I like to see what the heck is going on.
At least with mag tube shooters anyways.

Look at that poor chap with bullets moving on factory ammo.
He needs a bullet hammer, seating die and crimp die.
Then he can drawp awll them cartoogizzes he wants.

 

[skneub]

I also bought a factory crimp die lol , but have yet to use it..
Seems to shoot fine un crimped.

I believe I found the culprit in the light strikes...
P17 had a bent firing pin

I straightened it( it was very easy to straighten with vice grip)

Now looking for a replacement pin ( Just encase it fails on me)

 

[Ganderite]

It is good that we don't always agree and with the complexity of shooting and making ammunition, there are bound to be discrepancies between methods used and results obtained.
About the time I was starting to reload I used to borrow a book from the library by the British Military, showing the great many experiments they had made with their newly developed 303 cartridge, prior to WW1.
In one experiment they wanted to know the effect of barrel length on performance. So, starting with a full length barrel in the Lee Enfield, they would cut off inch at a time and note the performance.
They kept shortening the barrel until, as they stated, when they chambered a round, the front of the bullet stuck out!
They then said something to the effect that they were amazed to find out when they fired the round, that the front part of the bullet that stuck out of the barrel, had expanded and was larger diameter than it had been before it was fired!
They said this proved that when a cartridge was fired, the rear of the bullet started to move before the front of the bullet moved.
With that proven experiment, carried out by the British military, my common sense mind went to work. If the reaction is so violent when the powder is ignited, that the rear of the bullet moves ahead before the point of the FMJ bullet starts to move, how could a miniscule bit of pressure from crimping have any effect, whatsoever, on the starting of the bullet?
From my reloading I have never had any indication that crimping, or tightness of the bullet in the neck, did indeed have any affect on the bullets flight.
I have sometimes seated a bullet, only to find that it went in extra easy and examination showed a crack in the neck which I hadn't seen. I have fired such a cartridge into a bench rest group and saw no difference in the bullets POI.
I think once I even chronographed such a loose fitting bullet and found no difference in the velocity from the others, but I don't see notes of that event.
So there you go and Boomer, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on crimping!

The bullets from that test are on display at Bisley (England). They are mounted on a board, but I don't recall an explanation to go with them. I recognized them for what they were because I was familiar with the test. If any CGNrs are near Bisley, perhaps they could post a picture?


The display is shoulder high on the right, immediately as you walk in the front door of Fulton's.

The base of the bullet from the shortest barrel shot is very fat. Yes, base obduration is very real. Yield strength of the bullet base is around 10,000 psi, so when it get hit in the as s with 50,000 psi, it will expand to fit the barel.

 

[35Wailin]

My reloading habit is to ignore COAL so long as it is under the MAX OAL. Like a previous poster noted, seat to the cannelure, if available or the shortest length that fits and feeds from the magazine. I like to apply some crimp as ALL my rifle loads COULD be used for hunting, and I don't want the bullet to move in the case.

I have never had a bullet jammed into the lands yet. Also, my reloads are only fired in my rifles, so I don't care if the length would be an issue in another chamber.

 

[H4831]

The bullets from that test are on display at Bisley (England). They are mounted on a board, but I don't recall an explanation to go with them. I recognized them for what they were because I was familiar with the test. If any CGNrs are near Bisley, perhaps they could post a picture?


The display is shoulder high on the right, immediately as you walk in the front door of Fulton's.

The base of the bullet from the shortest barrel shot is very fat. Yes, base obduration is very real. Yield strength of the bullet base is around 10,000 psi, so when it get hit in the as s with 50,000 psi, it will expand to fit the barel.

Thank you for that, Ganderite.
I read that fifty some years ago, in the British book I was borrowing from the Prince George Library. I would borrow the book, return it when time was up, then borrow it again. Once when I went back to get it I couldn't find it. When I asked about it they said, "OH we discarded it, because not enough people were borrowing it!" What a shame. What a shame I didn't just keep it and say I had lost it!
There was just so much information in that book. Since chronographs were something in the far off future for ordinary shooter, there were complete diagrams and instructions for making a pendulum for measuring the bullet hitting power, from which you could calculate the velocity. I was pretty close to the point of making one, when the book went!