Only 8 rounds in the dump over the years.
30/30 bullets sinking down
- Thread starter shakeyjake
- Start date
Only 8 rounds in the dump over the years.
Well that's not so bad. But for crying out loud, dont' dump them at the dump. They can be pulled with pliers, powder spread in your roses or deciduous trees and make them grow.
I shoot mostly Remington 170 grain Core-Lokts thru my 4 x 30-30 rifles (3 x pre 64 Win 94s and 1 x Marlin 336).
I bought 20 boxes of Remington 170 grain Core-Lokt factory ammo for $12 a box last summer at a sale.
I've been shooting the same factory ammo for 30 years in my 30-30s and have never had a single problem with bullets retracting into the cases.
My curiosity was piqued by the OPs post and I took a box of Remington Core Lokt 170 grain 30-30 Winchester ammo out of my ammo cache 5 minutes ago and purposesly tried to dislodge a bullet from a loaded factory cartridge with a pair of pliers and the neck tension of the bullets seems fine as I really had to crank and pull to get the bullet to move.
I bought 20 boxes of Remington 170 grain Core-Lokt factory ammo for $12 a box last summer at a sale.
I've been shooting the same factory ammo for 30 years in my 30-30s and have never had a single problem with bullets retracting into the cases.
My curiosity was piqued by the OPs post and I took a box of Remington Core Lokt 170 grain 30-30 Winchester ammo out of my ammo cache 5 minutes ago and purposesly tried to dislodge a bullet from a loaded factory cartridge with a pair of pliers and the neck tension of the bullets seems fine as I really had to crank and pull to get the bullet to move.
I wouldn't think spring tension would cause this but I'm no expert. I use the exact same rounds, Rem core lokt 170gr. In the earlier years I shot Winchester Silver tips in the 170-180 grain variety, can't recall. Same problem with both brands, however they both are very effective at dropping black bears!
I trimmed my mag spring and polished and slicked up my rifles to the point they almost cycle themselves.
No "armstronging" of rounds thru my Winny 94s or 336.
A properly slicked up pre 64 Winchester 92 or 94 is as smooth as butter.
Ammo just "flows" thru my leverguns without any resistance at all.
I can cycle them with my baby finger.
Rifles that are "rough" are harder on ammo.
No "armstronging" of rounds thru my Winny 94s or 336.
A properly slicked up pre 64 Winchester 92 or 94 is as smooth as butter.
Ammo just "flows" thru my leverguns without any resistance at all.
I can cycle them with my baby finger.
Rifles that are "rough" are harder on ammo.
Yea this 94 was made in 1966 according to the serial # and it's got a heavy "kachunk" towards the end when the action is locked up. I brought it to a smith 10-15 years ago to smooth it out but it started doing it again after about 10 shots. My friend has a pre 64 and like you say......smooth as butter!
I've never had it happen to me in decades of lever shooting. I would suspect your ammo batch first. I suggest loading less than a full magazine tube and use them up for practice. For years I've loaded my 444 tubes with three rather than a full tube. That ends up one in chamber two in tube once ready to shoot. Sometimes in bear country I'd add one to the tube for three again. In my Win 94 and 92 I never load a full tube unless playing around. Again four in the rifle usually. The spring compression skyrockets for the last rounds. Shortening the spring works and sometimes improves accuracy a touch.
A lever just doesn't need a full tube for hunting. If your bullets setback with reduced spring pressure or short loaded I would consider the ammo suspect and burn it up if its only a box or two. It is sensible to discard rounds with setback, good judgment on your part.
Edit: I asked over at a dedicated lever site and noone had ever had factory ammo setback on them. Reloads yes until crimping got worked out. I'll report again later when there are more responses but I'm convinced you have an ammo batch issue.
A lever just doesn't need a full tube for hunting. If your bullets setback with reduced spring pressure or short loaded I would consider the ammo suspect and burn it up if its only a box or two. It is sensible to discard rounds with setback, good judgment on your part.
Edit: I asked over at a dedicated lever site and noone had ever had factory ammo setback on them. Reloads yes until crimping got worked out. I'll report again later when there are more responses but I'm convinced you have an ammo batch issue.
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- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
The mag spring is strong to accommodate folks who don't keep their guns/magazines clean. If you shorten the spring, you best be keeping that magazine clean and lubed. If you don't, feeding failures will result.
I've been using lever guns for more than 50 years now. Bullets pushed back happens now and then. reloads, or factory. It is caused by repeated loadings of the same cartridge, plus spring pressure, and recoil.
I don't shorten my spring because my rifle sees absolute hell in the bush. I've even removed spruce needles from the mag on cleaning.
I always get flack for this, but the cartridge will still fire safely if your rifle is in good shape. I have always shot mine. I won't guarantee accuracy but they do go bang.
As to the increase in pressures, it's true, but well within the safe limits of a modern firearm. That said, I wouldn't do it with a high pressure round like say a 308.
Many shooters who say "i wouldn't fire those rounds" probably already have. As the model 94 Winchester anyway, will feed them without you even noticing they are there.
So unless you check each round as it chambers, you've probably shot a few.
BTW the ones I've fired on target don't shoot bad either.
Clean and lube your magazine tube, spring, and follower regularly, it reduces the force you need to load the cartridge, and the strain on the crimp doing so.
I've been using lever guns for more than 50 years now. Bullets pushed back happens now and then. reloads, or factory. It is caused by repeated loadings of the same cartridge, plus spring pressure, and recoil.
I don't shorten my spring because my rifle sees absolute hell in the bush. I've even removed spruce needles from the mag on cleaning.
I always get flack for this, but the cartridge will still fire safely if your rifle is in good shape. I have always shot mine. I won't guarantee accuracy but they do go bang.
As to the increase in pressures, it's true, but well within the safe limits of a modern firearm. That said, I wouldn't do it with a high pressure round like say a 308.
Many shooters who say "i wouldn't fire those rounds" probably already have. As the model 94 Winchester anyway, will feed them without you even noticing they are there.
So unless you check each round as it chambers, you've probably shot a few.
BTW the ones I've fired on target don't shoot bad either.
Clean and lube your magazine tube, spring, and follower regularly, it reduces the force you need to load the cartridge, and the strain on the crimp doing so.
The notion that a shorter than "spec" OAL will raise pressures dramatically holds true only for small capacity cartridges, e.g. 9mm Luger. For much larger cartridges it's also true, but to a much lesser extent, particularly when the firearm in question is throated for the "spec" OAL, but is just seated deeper. The powder space is reduced, but the bullet has a "run up" to the rifling which compensates some.
With my 30/30 Lever Guns my concern is that the bullet will cycle correctly if I deviate much from the "spec" OAL, not increased pressure. I usually crimp, so it has yet to be an issue for me.
With my 30/30 Lever Guns my concern is that the bullet will cycle correctly if I deviate much from the "spec" OAL, not increased pressure. I usually crimp, so it has yet to be an issue for me.
Mine sees a lot of rough use too. I can't ever recall cleaning the tube. After a season all it gets is a coat of G96. I'll have to pull it apart one of these days. Years ago my smith told be to be careful if I start taking screws out, wrong screw and suff can go flying. I'm sure Google will have some info.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Some tube fed guns are more tolerant of off spec length cartridges than others. I've found the '94 Winchester very forgiving in that regard. Less so the 1892, and some Marlins, where such things can lead to much cursing to clear the magazine of same.
I am curious to just how much the bullet has been seated down in the neck, one thing I have noticed is that factory brass is not all equal as far as lengths go and this will effect where you see the end of the brass on the crimp ring of the bullet, I'd actually measure the OAL of the loaded rounds to see if it is just a bullet/case length issue or if the bullet is truly being pushed into the case.
I have also worn the round nose down a bit just cycling the rounds through a rifle in a given year, obviously the lead is soft and wears off on the feed ramp and again appearing to be shorter then a new factory round fresh out of the box.
If you still have one of these short rounds try posting a picture of it next to a factory out of the box never been fondled round so we can all see if and where we spot the difference
I have also worn the round nose down a bit just cycling the rounds through a rifle in a given year, obviously the lead is soft and wears off on the feed ramp and again appearing to be shorter then a new factory round fresh out of the box.
If you still have one of these short rounds try posting a picture of it next to a factory out of the box never been fondled round so we can all see if and where we spot the difference
I have never seen the need to take a gun, such as a Model 94 Winchester, apart to clean. I have heard too many stories about gunsmiths getting a box of pieces to put back together. I have assisted a gunsmith putting together a 94, in a case of where four hands are better than two, and was glad I was not on my own! By the way, a pre 64 is trickier than a post 64.
Browning didn't want the owners taking apart their FN shotguns, so they used very small screws, hard to get out, in an attempt to discourage the home "craftsman."
I think I have the absolute perfect example of why it is not necessary to take a rifle apart for cleaning. I bought a 1894 30 WCF, which was made in 1908 and purchased new by a rancher. The rifle stayed in the hands of the family of ranchers until I bought it last fall, from the last of the ranching family. That 30-30 had spent all but the last twenty years of its life as a working rifle with cowboys on horses on BC ranches. I got with it a very well use leather scabbard.
The rifle shows lots of use, has little, if any bluing left, the stock is well scuffed but not gouged and there is no rust on the rifle. The bore would rate between good and very good.
And here is the kicker. Every screw that Winchester put in the rifle is still there and not one single screw shows any indication, whatsoever, that it has ever been out of the rifle!
The action worked nice, so I took it to the range to shoot. It also shot fine and cycled well. I later squirted solvent into the action and blew it out with an airgun and oiled it. But no, it has still never had a screw out of it and it is just as smooth, easy working action as any 94 I have used.
So if it could spend about 80 years as a working ranch rifle without cleaning, don't tell me your rifle has to be taken apart to clean after a fall of hunting use!
Browning didn't want the owners taking apart their FN shotguns, so they used very small screws, hard to get out, in an attempt to discourage the home "craftsman."
I think I have the absolute perfect example of why it is not necessary to take a rifle apart for cleaning. I bought a 1894 30 WCF, which was made in 1908 and purchased new by a rancher. The rifle stayed in the hands of the family of ranchers until I bought it last fall, from the last of the ranching family. That 30-30 had spent all but the last twenty years of its life as a working rifle with cowboys on horses on BC ranches. I got with it a very well use leather scabbard.
The rifle shows lots of use, has little, if any bluing left, the stock is well scuffed but not gouged and there is no rust on the rifle. The bore would rate between good and very good.
And here is the kicker. Every screw that Winchester put in the rifle is still there and not one single screw shows any indication, whatsoever, that it has ever been out of the rifle!
The action worked nice, so I took it to the range to shoot. It also shot fine and cycled well. I later squirted solvent into the action and blew it out with an airgun and oiled it. But no, it has still never had a screw out of it and it is just as smooth, easy working action as any 94 I have used.
So if it could spend about 80 years as a working ranch rifle without cleaning, don't tell me your rifle has to be taken apart to clean after a fall of hunting use!
I tossed the rounds, but the worst ones were bad enough that you could visibly see & feel the ridge of the top of the brass......pics are worth 1000 words, sorry. The ogive of the projectile was sunk past the top of the brass....
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
I recommend pulling the mag tube, follower and spring.
You will certainly get rust and mung. Quite often the mag spring has surface corrosion which can be cleaned off with an oiled patch.
I usually put some oiled patches on a cleaning rod and run it back and forth a few times.
