Shotgun shell question

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Well I did contact the vendor and they have offered a full refund. I will take them up on their offer based on the issues you guys have pointed out.

I am still not sure why the breech face, FP holes, and primers are the way they are but I would rather not find out the hard way.

Thanks again for all your info and knowledge.
 
3macs1 said:
Nope not on a new gun. Never seen primers like those either but I have not purchased those junk hulls ever.
Cheers
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Look at that pic closely. If thats a new gun then it got a lifetime of stress in a few shots. Look at the gouges, indents and usage marks on that breech face. Not to mention the elongated firing pin holes . Inspecting them closer should tell you they weren't mfg that way. Brutal!! I cropped a pic of the breech face. Look at the damage to it and other areas of the receiver. This is not a new gun!!
 
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the spank said:
Look at that pic closely. If thats a new gun then it got a lifetime of stress in a few shots. Look at the gouges, indents and usage marks on that breech face. Not to mention the elongated firing pin holes . Inspecting them closer should tell you they weren't mfg that way. Brutal!!
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Only said new because he said it was a new gun. Even used it would be hard to duplicate this mess and even with tons of rounds
I am wondering what was really in those rounds that it was test fired with but then again it would take some serious pressures to make those marks etc
Also don't know what make it is so god knows what materials were used to produce it, if the metal was treated properly etc etc thus it could be still new with some material issues . A hardness test I think would show it to be very very soft
Cheers
 
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the spank said:
I think the OP must have meant "new" to him? I would sure like to know the make and model.
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Don't know but how many used guns come with test fired shells. In fact I have only ever seen test fired shells come once in a remington I bought new many years ago and it was an expensive shotgun
 
Sorry for the slow response, but just to support the previous wise sages before me...
Your shotgun may have a major headspace problem, and that it is most noticeable because of the test fired shells which had no propellant or shot (post#12). A good question is why the tester didn't fail this gun.

From the Speer Reloading Manual 13, Primer Appearance, pg. 54

"Primers that back out of the pocket seldom indicate a high pressure condition. In fact, the opposite is true; low pressure is likely the culprit. All sporting firearms have a certain amount of clearance between the breech face and the cartridge. This allows for a little room for powder residue and dirt to accumulate that may prevent a malfunction when the firearm is used under dirty conditions. When a primer fires, it generated its own level of pressure even before the propellant charge fully ignites. This initial pressure causes the primer to back out of the primer pocket until it is stopped by the breech face. When the propellant charge reaches normal pressure, the cartridge case is driven back until it is also stopped by the breech face and the protruding primer is reseated. If the operating pressure is low, there isn't enough force to drive the case back and the primer remains backed out."

And

"Excessive headspace can cause severely flattened primers at safe working pressures because the primer backs out much more than normal before the powder charge ignites."
 
redruns said:
Sorry for the slow response, but just to support the previous wise sages before me...
Your shotgun may have a major headspace problem, and that it is most noticeable because of the test fired shells which had no propellant or shot (post#12). A good question is why the tester didn't fail this gun.

From the Speer Reloading Manual 13, Primer Appearance, pg. 54

"Primers that back out of the pocket seldom indicate a high pressure condition. In fact, the opposite is true; low pressure is likely the culprit. All sporting firearms have a certain amount of clearance between the breech face and the cartridge. This allows for a little room for powder residue and dirt to accumulate that may prevent a malfunction when the firearm is used under dirty conditions. When a primer fires, it generated its own level of pressure even before the propellant charge fully ignites. This initial pressure causes the primer to back out of the primer pocket until it is stopped by the breech face. When the propellant charge reaches normal pressure, the cartridge case is driven back until it is also stopped by the breech face and the protruding primer is reseated. If the operating pressure is low, there isn't enough force to drive the case back and the primer remains backed out."

And

"Excessive headspace can cause severely flattened primers at safe working pressures because the primer backs out much more than normal before the powder charge ignites."
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Agree with what you are saying but these are 209 primers. I don't see where they backed out since they are seated with the sliver ring. May have come apart the primer itself and the center pushed back
Also we are talking a gun I assume made to SAAM1 specs so should be designed for 14,000 psi
I cannot see a primer alone developing that kind of pressure for the damage as being seen. But honestly have never need pressure data for just primers other than what changes they can make from one brand to another in reloads
Cheers
 
If what the seller said is true that they test fired it without shot or powder and only to test for primer strikes, it all makes sense. The primers are sticking out because of a low pressure situation. If fired an actual shell, the brass part of the shell would rapidly stretch into the breech face and push the primer back into its pocket. Its a sign of an under pressured load to hand loaders and a shell with just a primer would definitely be a under pressured load. Secondly, they were testing for primer strikes? Well with the look of those firing pin bores, I would say its pretty obvious as to why the were testing for primer strikes.
 
I have popped at least a hundred primers from shells I have salvaged the shot and wads from .have never had a primer that looked anything close to that . have also popped metallic cartridge primers the primer might back out 4 or 5 thousands . those look excessive to me . and that breach face is truly nasty looking .
 
What I can't figure out is why when someone posts for advice ,such as this , they can't be clear on if the gun is new or used and what make/model it is. You see this often where people want advice and leave out the basic important information so a whole lot of guess work ensues even when people ask for clarification.
 
My question was on what causes the primers to be popped that far out and if others had experienced this with any of there shotties. I said the gun was new.

The brand and vendor have no impact at this juncture as evidenced by the helpful and educational posts that some guys have offered up.

Re the brand/dealer - I am not interested in ruining some guys business if there was a QC issue/mix-up.

This thread has been educational to me and I am sure a lot of other guys with respect to headspace considerations and breach face inspection etc.
 
kamlooky said:
Weez awll ain't Eyenstines there gunsaholic.
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Is it hard to say what kind of gun it is even when people have asked for clarification? Was it difficult to clarify if it was new or used? Most that gave responses felt it was a used gun that had seen many, many rounds and was only "new to the buyer". But since my post it has now been clarified that it is a new gun after all so it shows how not being clear can create confusion. The dealer need not be named as that does make no difference to the actual problem. And in this case it's great the dealer is giving a refund. But many times giving important information can maybe give answers if it ends up that certain guns were noted for problems or quality issues. One cannot know that if one doesn't even know what is being dealt with. Maybe others have had the same problem with whatever kind of new gun this might be. And in this case a gun that is new with oblong firing pin holes like that and a marked up face should be sent back ASAP.
My post was not to meant to offend and I apologize if it did. It was meant to show that being clear or specific can help when someone is looking for advice.
 
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gunsaholic said:
Is it hard to say what kind of gun it is even when people have asked for clarification? Was it difficult to clarify if it was new or used? Most that gave responses felt it was a used gun that had seen many, many rounds and was only "new to the seller". But since my post it has now been clarified that it is a new gun after all so it shows how not being clear can create confusion. The dealer need not be named as that does make no difference to the actual problem. And in this case it's great the dealer is giving a refund. But many times giving important information can maybe give answers if it ends up that certain guns were noted for problems or quality issues. One cannot know that if one doesn't even know what is being dealt with. Maybe others have had the same problem with whatever kind of new gun this might be.
My post was not to meant to offend and I apologize if it did. It was meant to show that being clear or specific can help when someone is looking for advice.
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Have to agree with you .the more information about both gun and shell would simplify figuring out the problem . looking at the shells again I am wondering if there is even a flash hole on the hot side of the primer . Pressure like water will always flow down the path of least resistance . so what caused the primer cup to balloon out of the battery cup . when the flash hole side of the primer should be the path of least resistance .
 
Looks like Russian QC to me....





WW2 Russian QC.


OP is definitely not helping the shooting community by not sharing the gun maker. I could live without the dealer info, but whoever let that out the door should be put on blast.
I guess we will need to remember this next time OP asks for help....
 
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