M14 Fore End Gas System Bedding?

BadAsMo

BadAsMo

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I've been doing some work on my Noriko M14ish.
It's been shooting like crap so I thought I'd try to do something about it.

I welded the gas system (unitized). I determined the correct shim and TIG welded it between the front band and gas cylinder. That worked out perfect.

I knurled the barrel so the Op rod guide is now tight. Pined it with JB weld.

I also beefed up the fore end by adding fiberglass to fill between the ribs. This is what got me to thinking...

I've never heard of anyone talk about bedding the gas system to the fore end.

It makes sense that it would keep the barrel from hopping, reduce vibration etc.

Admittedly, it would heat up if you shoot fast, but with 5 round mags, that don't happen much.

Has this been tried?

What's the thinking here?
 
This has been tried by others and the general consensus seems to be that providing full clearance around gas cylinder provided better and consistant results VS pressure bedding the cylinder. Sage got it right by anchoring the oprod guide. I've played with a stock with an adjustable oprod guide and found that to be no more than a gimmick that quickly became useless as the rifle and aluminum stock heated up.
My most consistantly accurate M14 type rifle wears a medium barrel and a traditionally bedded fiberglass stock. It will hold 1 MOA untill about the 20th shot when heat starts to open the groups a wee bit.

I believe it was Amega Range or something like that, who was making a pistol grip/ar furniture composite stock about a decade ago. It had adjustments to tension the barrel built into the forend.... Don't hear much about that stock on US M14 forums so I'm guessing it didn't live up to the hype.

Haven't seen him post in a while but if I remember right, Chopper1 did a bunch of barrel/gas system pressure bedding experiments and I believe he was one of the few canadians to buy and try the amega ranges stock.
 
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I also have an LRB in a J Allen stock with the adjustable fore end but it only applies downward pressure on the barrel band - no opposing upward pressure.
You'd think that bedding the barrel so it lays there naturally couldn't hurt, but who knows I suppose.
I'm sure it's all been tried somewhere along the line.
 
BadAsMo said:
I also have an LRB in a J Allen stock with the adjustable fore end but it only applies downward pressure on the barrel band - no opposing upward pressure.
You'd think that bedding the barrel so it lays there naturally couldn't hurt, but who knows I suppose.
I'm sure it's all been tried somewhere along the line.
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I'm quite sure you are right about this. I often lament the fact that there are likely many, many gun junkies who have worked on m14 platform rifles over many decades that have all this information & more but never had a computer, or wouldn't have posted on the internet anyway! So much lost knowledge out there *sigh*
 
The knowledge isn't lost, some of us have just decided to post less and let others be helpful.
There was a very strong core of guys here for a number of years but the M14 craze seems to be dwindling in canada. It is what it is.
 
Pikester said:
I'm quite sure you are right about this. I often lament the fact that there are likely many, many gun junkies who have worked on m14 platform rifles over many decades that have all this information & more but never had a computer, or wouldn't have posted on the internet anyway! So much lost knowledge out there *sigh*
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This is why I created my youtube channel. The old M14 gurus are dying out. It's been my mission to collect as much "How To" information as possible and document it in video format. I've only got two more core videos to make and one of them is in progress; the glass bedding video. My goal is to have the rifle glassed this weekend and filmed. The second video I have to re-shoot is the basic cleaning video. After that, the basics should be complete.

Tony.
 
TonyBen said:
This is why I created my youtube channel. The old M14 gurus are dying out. It's been my mission to collect as much "How To" information as possible and document it in video format. I've only got two more core videos to make and one of them is in progress; the glass bedding video. My goal is to have the rifle glassed this weekend and filmed. The second video I have to re-shoot is the basic cleaning video. After that, the basics should be complete.

Tony.
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Thank you for all your video Tony. They are very helpful and detailed.
 
Another good idea , go buy Jerry Kunhaussen's book , The 30 caliber service rifles, a shop manual Vol1&2 . Brownells carried it last I saw. In depth on the M1garand and M14 rifles.
As an M14 owner who wants to really dive into "the knowledge" pool, and work on their own rifles, No videos on the planet will help you more than Jerry Kunhaussen's shop manual.
Mandatory reading as far as I'm concerned.
 
All great advice here! :cool:

Back in the 1980's we tried all kinds of means to tighten up our groups with accurized NM barreled M1A rifles. We were inspired by experiments conducted by USMC and US AMTU teams. They tried materials with teflon, grease, all kinds of greases, free floating, 15 lbs tension etc etc etc.

In the end, there was NO definitive means that gave consistent results. Yeah, that argument of tension or lots of tension or no tension still circulates. One truth does ring out.... a box stock Colt HBar will shoot tighter groups and in 1996 or was it 1997? The US AMTU shooters defeated the venerable USMC M14 shooters using tweaked M16A2 rifles shooting the 80 gr VLD Sierra MK in Camp Perry, Ohio. That was the end of the M14 dominance at Camp Perry. This is all taken from John Feamster's book: Black Magic: The Ultra Accurate AR-15

So don't beat yourself up doing all that work that was performed 20 plus years ago. :)

People often ask me at my clinics what technique I select for tensioning the gas system/ front stock ferrule relationship? I leave it all alone and compete with an AR.... end of argument.

And believe me, there are very few, few, few (and getting fewer) M14 type rifles competing at the DCRA.ca National Matches (NSCC). I always (I mean always) get my butt handed to me by well trained CAF soldiers shooting box stock C7A2 rifles and their IVI ammo.

That's it... time to shoot with my .308 Garand and a plate carrier for poops and giggles! ha ha ha ha :cool: All great fun!

Cheers and keep on helping them nooobs! :wave:

Barney
 
You're forgetting the Springfield M1A Match at Camp Perry Barney.
I think they give away about $30K in prizes for a one day event and it's on the weekend prior to the Ontario Provincial Championship, so it's a nice warm up / pump up.

Plus for me Perry is barely an hour and a half away, making it one of the closest "real" rifle ranges.

No argument that the AR is an easier to shoot platform, but it's a restricted easier to shoot platform so I'm forced to curb my enthusiasm.
 
I'm no competition shooter so have never had a use for the poodle shooters. For some , owning and shooting their rifles is all about cosmetics and putting little holes in paper. There is an approach to building/tuning such a rifle. My rifles are meant mostly for putting holes in living things where in field reliabilty and handling trump all.
To each his own.
But an AR pattern rifle will never replace an M14 type rifle in my collection. While I appreciate a highly accurate rifle, I gots no use for rifles that just look good on paper ;)

The Kunhaussen shop manual has an entire section on the various bedding methods for M14 and M1Garand. It gives you clear drawings and most importantly , critical dimensions that you can measure.
It discusses in detail , the various modifications done to various parts of the rifle by both civillian and military user groups.
No video on the planet will give you a better reference for building/tuning/accurizing the M14 platform.
Although I will say, Tony Ben the video guy, has done a great job gathering the info from experts and compiling them into his videos. Which are usefull to many there's no doubt.
 
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the tweeks and fine tuning on the m14 was limited by what was allowed for military competition (ie: the rifle must still look like a M14 issued) the old armourers must know some improvements that were not allowed.
 
Not sure what prez ohbumhole's plans are down across the line as far as firearms info online goes but I'd be snappin up all the videos and books/materials you all can get yer mitts on for the firearms you love to work on.

Question for Tony Ben....
Will all these plans by yer president affect availlability of yer videos and others like yours? I notice some guys complaining that their youtube channels are getting censored for firearm content. Cryin shame what's going on and I don't really understand it all LOL
 
It may or may not affect my videos and my business. Some claim it's just an unnecessary scare, others say it's an outright attack to silence us. Time will tell, but I think any attempts to silence us may have extreme repercussions that they haven't anticipated. I'm thinking that this attempt to silence us will end like the green tip M855 scenario, which is loud vocalization which will be heard and they will back off.

And I agree, the Kuhnhausen manual is great to have and I have one myself. There's knowledge in there that I don't think I'll ever be able to cover. Some people learn more with videos and some can extract what they need out of a book. It's nice to have options that everyone can choose from.

Tony.
 
45ACPKING said:
I'm no competition shooter so have never had a use for the poodle shooters. For some , owning and shooting their rifles is all about cosmetics and putting little holes in paper. There is an approach to building/tuning such a rifle. My rifles are meant mostly for putting holes in living things where in field reliabilty and handling trump all.
To each his own.
But an AR pattern rifle will never replace an M14 type rifle in my collection. While I appreciate a highly accurate rifle, I gots no use for rifles that just look good on paper ;)


The Kunhaussen shop manual has an entire section on the various bedding methods for M14 and M1Garand. It gives you clear drawings and most importantly , critical dimensions that you can measure.
It discusses in detail , the various modifications done to various parts of the rifle by both civillian and military user groups.
No video on the planet will give you a better reference for building/tuning/accurizing the M14 platform.
Although I will say, Tony Ben the video guy, has done a great job gathering the info from experts and compiling them into his videos. Which are usefull to many there's no doubt.
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Amen Bro! No restricted groundhog rifle will be able to put down moose or deer with the authority of a .308 (Hornady SST) from my LRB M25! :cool: ha ha ha ha ha

And my poodle shooters just sit in the safe during hunting season! Bring on the deer! :evil: My M25 is getting out for the rifle season! :)


Yup, Kuhnhausen is the man. There's no doubt! And as usual, TonyBen is da man! :dancingbanana:
 
Ya, I gotta say, it is somewhat a relief that the daily filling up of my inbox from M14 questions has slowed exponentially since Tony began compiling his videos. By the time he's done, it will be like a Youtube M14 clinic in a can and guys like tac teacher and I can take a break from helpin all you noobs and get out and shoot our own rifles for a change ;) at least that's my plan hehehehe
All good resources here on CGN for you m14 nuts to soak up.
 
There is one part in the M14 gas block/foreend linkage that gets ZERO attention, and that is the stamped sheet metal hook. Why are we putting so much effort into stabilizing, welding, shimming and securing every part but the one with a built-in 90-degree bend? In a perfect world, I think I'd have one machined or reinforced so it can't flex or distort.
 
I've never managed to bend the gas band lip but I suppose it could be done hehehe
One thing I have done is make a whole new stock in Carbon composite with a built in support for the stock oprod guide. Allowing it to be bolted up with the stock similar to sage. So far I've been very impressed and my rifle is shooting about 35 rounds of sustained fire, 5 seconds between shots, before it's groups start to change due to heating up the barrel. That's 15 rounds more than it usually takes for that rifle's groups to start opening up under sustained deliberate fire. Definately not a change the world mod but further testing will be fun.
 
maple_leaf_eh said:
There is one part in the M14 gas block/foreend linkage that gets ZERO attention, and that is the stamped sheet metal hook. Why are we putting so much effort into stabilizing, welding, shimming and securing every part but the one with a built-in 90-degree bend? In a perfect world, I think I'd have one machined or reinforced so it can't flex or distort.
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I've given the front band a fair amount of thought myself. I don't think it's a strength concern but I do thing the radius that maintains contact with the stock is ineffective. I think a tighter rad would work better if we want the barrel to lock to the fore end - which I'm not sure is a good idea - or make the hook flat so it does not interfere with where the barrel wants to point.

I think flyers can occur when the hook hangs up just a little to one side or the other on the metal at the front of the fore end and that causes side to side flyers.

If it was flat and maybe highly polished - you'd think it would have a better chance of returning to the natural resting point from shot to shot.
 
BadAsMo said:
I've given the front band a fair amount of thought myself. I don't think it's a strength concern but I do thing the radius that maintains contact with the stock is ineffective. I think a tighter rad would work better if we want the barrel to lock to the fore end - which I'm not sure is a good idea - or make the hook flat so it does not interfere with where the barrel wants to point.

I think flyers can occur when the hook hangs up just a little to one side or the other on the metal at the front of the fore end and that causes side to side flyers.

If it was flat and maybe highly polished - you'd think it would have a better chance of returning to the natural resting point from shot to shot.
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If it was a ball and socket, would that work? I think there would be some unavoidable longitudinal motion because the lip is not where the critical locking surfaces meet the receiver. So the lip is more likely to have a fairly small bearing surface. (I don't have a rifle at hand, so I'm going on visual memory.)
 
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