more gun or more glass?

krausb

krausb

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Hey fellas,

I'm just getting started in the long range/precision game and I've been doing my research for a new rig and while the information on this forum has been extremely helpful, I think I may actually be more confused than when I started! :confused: I guess I am looking for a little guidance from the gurus here; and maybe just some feedback to let me know if I am on hte right track or if I need to adjust my thinking and/or budget.

So to start off, what I want to do (at least in the beginning) is start off shooting at 100 -300 m and once i can achieve decent groups start stretching out and clanging some steel at 500 m and beyond. Space and privacy are not issues as I have a few nice spots out on the in-law's farm that safely extend out to 800 m and a bit beyond, with one location having well over 1200 m of clear, safe lane of fire with a safe backstop.

I don't have a set budget as such, but I am aiming to keep the whole set up in the $5000 range, give or take a bit. I'm willing to pay a bit more more to get more, but there has to be a tangible return on the extra investment.

I started off looking at some of the more expensive precision guns like the Sako TRG and the FNH SPR (just to name two; and I know there are way more expensive guns out there) and was budgeting around $2000 (hopefully a bit less) for a decent scope. But then I got thinking... Should I be looking at a cheaper, but well made, rifle like a Tikka Tac or even some of the offerings from Savage or Remington and topping them with a $3000+ 5-25x scope instead of having a more expensive gun and less glass?...

I will say that I have some reservations about both Remington and Savage guns. I know people, both here on the forums and in real life, that have had issues with both. But that honestly was a few years ago and I don't know what either company's QC is like now. So I am keeping an open mind to those brands and willing (hell, even hoping!) to hear some first hand experiences from you guys. I have heard that Remington's actions are prone to issues with not having all of the bolt lugs properly lock up; and I have seen Savage actions so warped that a scope could not be mounted (granted these both were Savage hunting rifles and not precision/tactical guns FWIW).

So what do the guys that shoot a lot think? Should my first precision gun be more gun with decent but cheaper glass, or should I buy a scope that will outlive (and maybe outperform) the gun and spend either a little or a lot less on my "starter" precision gun?

I should also add that there is definitely a part of me that would like to get a gun that can eventually put into a Cadex chassis (or something similar), so I am also second guessing spending more on a higher end gun that comes with a McMillan, or similar, stock. Or something like the TRG that has very limited aftermarket stock/chassis options.

Sorry for the long post! Hopefully my rambling makes some sense and you guys have some feedback for me. I know it's not always fun to be constantly answering questions from newbies, so thanks very much to those that do take the time to reply to this thread. Your help is genuinely appreciated.
 
The consensus seems to be is buy good glass, because you can transfer it to the next rifle. That being said, with $5000 budget, your in a good starting spot. You could easily afford a nightforce scope and still have a decent amount left over for a rifle. I would consider a high end savage or remington rifle with a nightforce scope. Once you start shooting decent groups at 300y, consider upgrading the rifle and keep the optics.


Or if you really want to buy and keep your setup, I would consider a sightron scope. They have extremely good optical quality for the cost leaving you enough money left over for a custom rig. Which is the exact opposite of what I just said. But $5000 is a pretty good budget, and it offers you lots of options.

Oh, if your not reloading, I would strongly consider doing so even at the expense of your initial rifle and scope.
 
Remington issues can all be fixed by a competent gun smith and they have better after market support so the end goal is something tactical then Remington is unfortunately a better option. I sold my 700 in 7mm rem mag a couple of years ago and have not looked back since. With the return I got a used Savage 10 FCP-SR, I am a new shooter and spend most of my time just shooting at 100 and TBH having a gun that can shoot 1MOA makes me perfectly happy.

As for what you're asking:

**NOTE**

I'm no expert and the following is just my opinion.

Remingtons - good after market support, heard rumblings of QC and overall catastrophic failures with those but Rmeington themself has dealt with all of those issues. And a simple after market trigger will fix the issue.

Savage - Floating bolt head engages the round better so my understanding is no need for lapping bolt lugs or any fine tuning on the action. But after market support is like 90% of what it is for Remingtons.

Tikka - I don't honestly enough about these to give you any advice a buddy has a hunting rifle in 30-06 and loves it.

Accuracy International - If your budget is honestly 5k I would get a cheap AI and good rings and then one of the Vortex Viper HST's for 600$, but again that is just me. The rifles were built by target shooters and some people get an AI chassis for their Remington after some time anyways, so if you start with an AI you don't need to get a better action later on.

Again all of this is just my opinion so take with a grain of salt.
 
Gobc said:
The consensus seems to be is buy good glass, because you can transfer it to the next rifle. That being said, with $5000 budget, your in a good starting spot. You could easily afford a nightforce scope and still have a decent amount left over for a rifle. I would consider a high end savage or remington rifle with a nightforce scope. Once you start shooting decent groups at 300y, consider upgrading the rifle and keep the optics.

Or if you really want to buy and keep your setup, I would consider a sightron scope. They have extremely good optical quality for the cost leaving you enough money left over for a custom rig. Which is the exact opposite of what I just said. But $5000 is a pretty good budget, and it offers you lots of options.

Oh, if your not reloading, I would strongly consider doing so even at the expense of your initial rifle and scope.
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Thanks! I was actually just reading about the new Sightron SVSS series. Seems to be a whole lot of scope for the price, and would definitely be enough scope for even the highest end guns. Very good point about making sure that I have budget left over for reloading equipment! I kind of forgot about setting aside money for that. Thanks!
 
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Willybuch said:
Remington issues can all be fixed by a competent gun smith and they have better after market support so the end goal is something tactical then Remington is unfortunately a better option. I sold my 700 in 7mm rem mag a couple of years ago and have not looked back since. With the return I got a used Savage 10 FCP-SR, I am a new shooter and spend most of my time just shooting at 100 and TBH having a gun that can shoot 1MOA makes me perfectly happy.

As for what you're asking:

**NOTE**

I'm no expert and the following is just my opinion.

Remingtons - good after market support, heard rumblings of QC and overall catastrophic failures with those but Rmeington themself has dealt with all of those issues. And a simple after market trigger will fix the issue.

Savage - Floating bolt head engages the round better so my understanding is no need for lapping bolt lugs or any fine tuning on the action. But after market support is like 90% of what it is for Remingtons.

Tikka - I don't honestly enough about these to give you any advice a buddy has a hunting rifle in 30-06 and loves it.

Accuracy International - If your budget is honestly 5k I would get a cheap AI and good rings and then one of the Vortex Viper HST's for 600$, but again that is just me. The rifles were built by target shooters and some people get an AI chassis for their Remington after some time anyways, so if you start with an AI you don't need to get a better action later on.

Again all of this is just my opinion so take with a grain of salt.
Click to expand...


Good point about the AI. I haven't really thought of them. I will take a look at them for sure. I hear what you are saying about Remington, and I guess I do kind of wonder if a new gun should need fixing up right out of the box? But maybe for the price of a Remington, it's not as big a deal as I am making it out to be?

Thanks for the input!
 
Not a guru but spend most of the money on good glass like a Nightforce because you will not outgrow it. Buy a Remmy 5R or 700P and shoot that for a few seasons. Once you want to upgrade you move your Nightforce scope over to a new rifle and sell the old one.

Honestly AI's start at $5000 for the rifle (there are no cheap AI's) so that leaves you no cash for a scope (the optics are more important than the rifle imho).
 
Best bang for your buck is a tikka tac, sporter, or varmint. I've seen outstanding accuracy with all three. Vastly superior to any of the savages and Remington's I've owned (fcp-sr, pc 10, rem 5r mil, aac sd, etc.).
The sporter and tikka tac are 1/3 moa rifles, consistently.
Top that with a sightron s3, the best glass for the money, and you'll have something that is on the same level as most customs/ai/trg's for a fraction of the price.
 
J996 said:
Not a guru but spend most of the money on good glass like a Nightforce because you will not outgrow it. Buy a Remmy 5R or 700P and shoot that for a few seasons. Once you want to upgrade you move your Nightforce scope over to a new rifle and sell the old one.

Honestly AI's start at $5000 for the rifle (there are no cheap AI's) so that leaves you no cash for a scope (the optics are more important than the rifle imho).
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I am definitely starting to see that I was thinking in the right direction with more glass, less gun... Thanks for the input! And, as someone else pointed out in a PM, there are also a lot of hidden costs that I hadn't thought of like a decent bipod, rings, rail, etc. plus as mentioned by Gobc, reloading gear or match grade ammo. All costs money...
 
krausb said:
Thanks! I was actually just reading about the new Sightron SVSS series. Seems to be a whole lot of scope for the price, and would definitely be enough scope for even the highest end guns. Very good point about making sure that I have budget left over for reloading equipment! I kind of forgot about setting aside money for that. Thanks!
Click to expand...

You haven't mentioned calibre yet, so one thought. If you haven't chosen one yet, choose .308 Winchester. There is plenty of good match grade ammo out there, no reloading required. You will have to wear out a barrel before you will recover your start up costs reloading, so if you aren't already into it, make it a separate consideration from buying a long range heater.

As for how much scope do you need...

When I first started shooting for distance, I was told by all the serious guys that your budget for the set-up should be split 50/50 between gun and glass. No point having a gun that can shoot further than you can see, and no point seeing further than you can hit, so a good balance has to be struck.

After building three of my own rigs, and helping about half a dozen friends get theirs set up, I now think the formula should be 1/3rd Barreled Action, 1/3rd Stock, and 1/3rd Optics. Most guys I know usually end up throwing away whatever stock their gun comes with in favour of something that has all the features they want. Despite all of the factory gun options out there, it just seems impossible to find a gun that has absolutely every feature you want in a barrel length, twist, contour, mag, adjustment, weight, trigger, etc without also getting a whole bunch of features you don't need, or making compromises that you will later have to pay more money to fix anyways.

If it has to be new, find the gun with the barreled action specs you want, with the cheapest possible stock which will head straight to the EE anyways. Then find what ever stock system you want, I'm coming close to pulling the trigger on a CADEX myself. Then Glass and rings. I've never regretted over spending on glass, and have always ended up upgrading whenever I under bought, which is more expensive in the long run.

Don't cheap out on the rings either. In my experience the law of diminishing returns for scopes seems to really take hold past $2,500. I've looked through and shot with $10,000 scopes, and they are down right beautiful. Are they three times better than a $3,300 scope? Not even close.

$1300 is plenty for a good entry level barreled action.
$1300 is plenty for a good entry level scope.
$1300 is plenty for a good stock with all the options you'd want.

That leaves 1000 left over for unseen accessory needs, a tune up at the Smith, and small pile of ammo to get you started.

Thank you for having a reasonable budget in mind as there are plenty of threads where guys seem to think they can drop a grand and shoot into space. :)
 
Thanks for the big reply Cameron SS!

Yes, .308 for my first precision gun was what I had in mind as well. I was thinking that because it has been around for so long in precision shooting circles that there is a wide selection of ammo/reloading components and a ton of data about shooting this caliber. Down the road I may go with something else but for now .308 seems to be a solid choice.

I do kind of like your rule of thirds. It makes sense. That said, I think I am still leaning towards better glass that my be able to be just as usable on the "move up" gun that comes later on once my skill improves. You make a good point that spending more on glass now may actually be cheaper in the long run.

But that said, what barreled actions would you recommend in the $1300 range that you referred to? Are you thinking off the shelf rifles or something custom?

Also, maybe this is a good time to ask, is there any appreciable difference between a 1 in 11 twist and a 1 in 12? I see a little of both and don;t have the experience to know if that little of a difference really matters. And, FWIW, I am leaning towards a barrel length around 24". Please let me know if I am off base, but I think the longer barrel will result in higher velocities which will eventually let me reach out farther than, say, a 20" barrel.
 
If I was doing it again.... Glass, reloading, rifle. In that order. My reasoning is this, You need the measurements to be perfect and repeatable. Next you need to know it is Definitely not your ammo, next, most rifles these days (varmint series rifles of most brands) are beyond most shooters capabilities and when beded and trigger job, will fall somewhere between .5 and 1 MOA with little effort. After this, shoot, shoot , shoot, the. When worn out, replace your barrel and stay in Love with your setup.
 
Interesting perspective! Thanks Duncan. You're right, it's going to take a lot of practice to be able to outshoot any of the modern varmint rifles I suppose.
 
I just upgraded my scope. I was using a Vortex Optics Viper PST in 4-16x50 First Focal Plane. It was a good scope, but as I used it, I found it wasn't the right scope for me. What I upgraded to is a Sightron SIII 8-32x56 Second Focal Plane. The new scope was about $1100 and I have it mounted in a set of Alberta Tactical Rifle rings ($150). Simply put, this scope is probably one of, if not the best value on the market. Yes you can get better scopes (Schmidt & Bender, March, Tangent Theta, Nightforce ATACR for example) but those are typically $2500 or more. Even a Nightforce NXS will be in exess of $2000, and the Sightron is very close in quality to the NXS. (Some might even say it is on par with or better than the NXS.) I won't say that, but I will say that the NXS is not in my opinion worth $900 more than the Sightron.

That would leave $3750 or so for your budget. With that $3750, I would probably go with a Tikka T3 Heavy Barrel Varmint (around $1120) and a CADEX DUAL Strike Chassis ($2395)

Sightron SIII 8-32x56 Scope: $1100
ATRS 30mm Rings: 150
Tikka T3 HB Varmint: 1120
CADEX Dual Strike Chassis: 2395
Total: $4765

Note that these figures will vary somewhat depending on where you order/source your parts from and do not include tax or shipping.

... or you could just contact the guys at ATRS and tell them what you have as a budget, tell them what you want, and have them work up a quote for you that suits your goals, budget & timeline. (That is what I did.)

Take my recommendations with a grain of salt. But no matter what you do decide, I have the Sightron SIII 8-32x56 on my rifle and getting it was a great decision.
 
I just picked up a setup off the ee. A hs precision 6.5-284 with a nightforce nsx, decent price (close to the price of a new nsx alone, with 200 nib lapua brass and dies included) and so far with very little tuning it looks like a half moa rifle. if it doesn't have to be new you could do very well with a slightly used setup. Lots of guys buy a rig, set it up then get board with it, hardly use it and sell. You just need to deal them down a bit.
 
My first rifle for long range which I still shoot is a remy 5r 300 win mag . I paid $999 BNIB and then I put it in a AICS 1.5 stock. After shooting a little I decided to bed it and accurize it . The scope on it is a Mark 4 LRT 8.5x25x50 and let me say for a factory rifle it shoots 1/2 MOA all day long for just under $5000
 
I can't agree with the comment stating you will wear out a .308 barrel before you recoup your investment in reloading gear. That is only true if you blow thousands of dollars on reloading equipment which is far from necessary. You can get setup to reload ammo far better than any factory match load for under $100 if you want to. I haven't bought a box of .308 in a few years but the last I bought was Remington match 168 @ $42/20 rds. I hear most good .308 factory ammo is $50+/20 nowadays. Loading an inexpensive match bullet with your favorite powder and a match primer costs so much less than factory ammo and shoots far better. With a 168 Hornady HPBT, 41.5 grs IMR4895 and a Fed210 primer I'm at 63 cents/round. That's $12.50 for 20 rounds of match grade ammo. I think MFS and Barnaul cheap ammo costs more than that. Reloading is absolutely worth it. No question about it. Now for the main question. Scope and mounts need to be solid. Don't waste money on something cheap that you'll outgrow. Buy quality rings and a quality base. Consider the factory stock. Is it worth bedding? Or is it best swapped for something better? Cheap tupperware stocks are the bane of factory offerings. And a quality trigger is another thing to consider. It will make an immediate and dramatic improvement once you're at the stage where you're starting to see good groups but keep causing flyers that ruin a good group. Pulling 5+ lbs is not ideal. 2.5 is a good start but once you start getting the fundamentals down, a cheap sloppy trigger will start robbing your focus and you'll see it as a hindrance. But before spending money, put in some range time. Get behind the rifle and do your best until you can tell for yourself what needs improvement and what isn't bothering you.
 
With your budget, consider a semi custom rifle, good rings and bases, Sightron SIII scope.

There will be money left over for reloading supplies.

And you are off the races with a rifle that can and will shoot and the stuff to really get it going.

I have articles on my website that can show you some examples of what I mean. There are lots of great way to get excellent performance for a fair price.

you can always spend more but it can be debated if you will get better.

Let me know

Jerry
 
krausb said:
Thanks for the big reply Cameron SS!

Yes, .308 for my first precision gun was what I had in mind as well. I was thinking that because it has been around for so long in precision shooting circles that there is a wide selection of ammo/reloading components and a ton of data about shooting this caliber. Down the road I may go with something else but for now .308 seems to be a solid choice.

I do kind of like your rule of thirds. It makes sense. That said, I think I am still leaning towards better glass that my be able to be just as usable on the "move up" gun that comes later on once my skill improves. You make a good point that spending more on glass now may actually be cheaper in the long run.

But that said, what barreled actions would you recommend in the $1300 range that you referred to? Are you thinking off the shelf rifles or something custom?

Also, maybe this is a good time to ask, is there any appreciable difference between a 1 in 11 twist and a 1 in 12? I see a little of both and don;t have the experience to know if that little of a difference really matters. And, FWIW, I am leaning towards a barrel length around 24". Please let me know if I am off base, but I think the longer barrel will result in higher velocities which will eventually let me reach out farther than, say, a 20" barrel.
Click to expand...

Rule of thirds is just a guideline. Modify it as you see fit, like if you know you want to migrate the scope later.

Either a savage model 10 or a remington 700 sps varmint heavy barrel. Both can be had for under 1000 which leaves money for the inevitable trigger tune etc.

Off the shelf is fine to start, but a factory tuned option from a reputable smith like ATRS is a better option if you can afford it.

You are going to get a lot of different opinions about barrel length and rate of twist, but generally longer barrel = faster muzzle velocity, but there are trade offs. As for twist, you will probably want 1-10. Faster twists are more suitable to the heavier bullets you will want to shoot at long distance.

I would consider 24" the absolute minimum if you want to shoot beyond 300. Less than that would be a real handicap if you want to compete.
 
LongBomber said:
I just picked up a setup off the ee. A hs precision 6.5-284 with a nightforce nsx, decent price (close to the price of a new nsx alone, with 200 nib lapua brass and dies included) and so far with very little tuning it looks like a half moa rifle. if it doesn't have to be new you could do very well with a slightly used setup. Lots of guys buy a rig, set it up then get board with it, hardly use it and sell. You just need to deal them down a bit.
Click to expand...

This is good advise. Something like this http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1250255-Rob-MacLennan-308?highlight=estate, complete with dies and a recipe will outshoot you for some time. Great platform to learn the ropes on for not a lot of dollars. Not exactly what you want chassis wise etc. but lots of dollars left over for reloading components, getting you out shooting. If you want to shoot off a bipod, a quick retrofit rail and away you go. There are a couple other 308s on the EE already chassied up, but with no glass. As LongBomber says, lots of times guys spend the dollars on the builds and then don't shoot them and sell them for somewhat less than build cost.
 
Just a heads up if you are unfamiliar with that particular cartridge, barrel life is very short.
800 rounds or so when running full power loads.
A 308 is the way to go to get started. Then a 6.5. Then a barrel burner like a 6.5-284, or 7 wssm variant.
 
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