Beyond 500 yds. hunting

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Sockeye

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When I was much younger I was told that the bullet must be traveling at 2,000 fps to be sure of it expanding on an animal.
That would limit many rifles to no more then 500 yds. or less I would think.
I have been away from shooting for a long time and am just returning.
I suspect the bullet manufactures are making a much better long range designed hunting bullet now.
What brand and type of bullet would on Elk out to 700 yds.
My kids want to take me after Elk this fall and I do not feel comfortable or confident with off the shelf core lock bullets in my 300 win mag that they told me is all that I need to get.
Any recommendations would be appreciated - I myself believe anything beyond 400 yds. will get only my admiration not my bullet.
It is their judgement I question.
 
Wind drift at 700 is substantial, it is a huge variable.
The skill required to master it in the field at that type of range is rare in my opinion.
My abilities would have me stalking to close the distance.
As for the bullet I'll let others chime in, I don't hunt elk.
But on the game I do hunt I usually use a premium bullet of some type ( for peace of mind I think more than anything else...).
 
Some reasonable posts here. The other side will show up soon...

I've shot 1000's of rounds at 600+. Not saying I'm a good shot by any means but I know my limits for harvesting an animal are nowhere near that.

Hunters need to be realistic with their shots.
 
OP - your question was "What brand and type of bullet would on Elk out to 700 yds."

Manufacturers like Nosler include the expansion information right on the package. I'm looking at .338 225 grain Accubond, and 7mm 150 grain Partition. Both say "Optimal Performance Velocity - Minimum: 1800 fps; Maximum: unlimited". On a box of 7mm 168 grain Accubond Long Range, it gives the minimum "Optimal Performance Velocity" as 1300 fps.

From my Ruger #1 7x57, with 150 Partition's at 2800 fps muzzle, and the LRAB at 2600 fps muzzle, both are still over 1800 fps at 600 yards, as per Nosler tables. For my 338 Winchester, 225 grain Accubonds at 2,800 MV, 250 grain Accubonds at 2,700 MV and 300 grain Accubonds at 2,400 MV would all still be over 1800 fps at 600 yards, as per the Nosler tables. So, any of these bullets should perform way out there - however, no way that I could be sure to put one cold barrel shot into 12" heart/lung area that far out.
 
OP you asked this question the right way and I respect that. This forum has this question a lot and it usually starts with a guy watching one episode of long range hunter and now thinks he's capable of such shots. I regularly compete at precision matches that shoot to 1000 yards. I consider myself pretty good. That being said in real life situations on a moving animal is very different. So my usual answer is if you even need to ask the question what bullet, what rifle, what caliber. That already shows you shouldn't be taking such a shot. But if you want to start your journey and years of practice. And perhaps want a bullet to start with. Look at the nosler long range. It is supposed to expand at 1300fps.
 
Sockeye said:
When I was much younger I was told that the bullet must be traveling at 2,000 fps to be sure of it expanding on an animal.
That would limit many rifles to no more then 500 yds. or less I would think.
I have been away from shooting for a long time and am just returning.
I suspect the bullet manufactures are making a much better long range designed hunting bullet now.
What brand and type of bullet would on Elk out to 700 yds.
My kids want to take me after Elk this fall and I do not feel comfortable or confident with off the shelf core lock bullets in my 300 win mag that they told me is all that I need to get.
Any recommendations would be appreciated - I myself believe anything beyond 400 yds. will get only my admiration not my bullet.
It is their judgement I question.
Click to expand...

Here's an article that may help; basically it will confirm that you are exactly right. As you can see, Mr Litz has done extensive testing and modelling with the 300 WM, and his 100% hit probability ranges for the 300 WM are 300, 500 and 800m depending on which of the three confidence levels applies. This is for an IPSC size target too, so bigger than an elk's vitals. Expansion is the easiest problem to solve; putting that bullet where it needs to go with 100% certainty is the hardest. With a 300 WM the worry I would have with bullets isn't effective expansion at long range, again that's easy to ensure, but rather bullet disintegration at shorter ranges due to high velocity. Not an issue with Core Lokts as far as I am aware.

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/ABDOC116_1_300WinMagWEZ_Rev1.pdf

http://appliedballisticsllc.com/professional/consulting-case-studies/
 
so i am a long range elk hunter and have taken many elk at 400,560,680,350,535,
but i must say its not an easy task i hand load and im hand loading for energy at 1000 yards
i have been to the range 20 times this year already and shoot 1060 yard regulary. and group 3-4 inches at 600 yards
as one person said hunting is a hole lot of unpredictability. but i hunt the same valley with the same winds and the same cuts year after year.
i carry a 1600 yard range finder i have blaze set up for wind in my cuts i carry a weather station .
and practice ,practice ,practice at all my surrounding elevations and have ballistic charts for 3000 ft and 6000 ft .9000 ft
so it can be done buts its years of work
 
By now I have worn out a few barrels shooting long range and here is my take on things. Variables get magnified almost exponentially after about 700 yards. Good solid first round hits within what would be considered a kill zone isn't that hard to 650-700 yards but after that not so much. I have shot sub 3 inch groups on occasion as well as embarrassingly large groups(as a result of switching conditions I missed) at 1000 yards .The wind can be doing on thing where you are and another thing 3 hundred yards away and again something else at 700 yards etc etc. The wind can also be doing something different on the ground as compared to 25 feet off the ground( although more rare I have experienced this). For these reasons I think even experienced long range shooters should very carefully consider the shot before sending it. I don't think I would shoot a big game animal beyond 700-750 as there is just too much risk of a wounded animal.......
 
I like to shoot past 800 yards. I have a nice 12" gong which is about the size of the vitals on an animal and like Canuck525, my experience is the same. While drop is predictable, wind is a huge factor (even for my 338 LM) and there is really no reason to be taking shots at animals at 400 yards+ unless you have a specialized rig (I am assuming that you have an off rack hunting grade rifle). If you are able to get closer to the animal and ensure a cleaner kill, I would recommend that you do so. The 300 WM is a capable round but unless your rig is configured right (i.e. good repeatable scope and rifle) I wouldn't risk the shot. A lot of folks like to pretend at being some sort of sniper but what they fail to realize is that in war soldiers will take shots because there are greater things at stake - and they frequently don't hit on the first shot. Unless you're some sort of slob hunter who doesn't give a s**t, I think the guilt of wounded animal will make you regret taking such a long shot. Walking 400 yards+ to finish off an animal is also a long ways to go...
 
Glock4ever said:
I like to shoot past 800 yards. I have a nice 12" gong which is about the size of the vitals on an animal and like Canuck525, my experience is the same. While drop is predictable, wind is a huge factor (even for my 338 LM) and there is really no reason to be taking shots at animals at 400 yards+ unless you have a specialized rig (I am assuming that you have an off rack hunting grade rifle). If you are able to get closer to the animal and ensure a cleaner kill, I would recommend that you do so. The 300 WM is a capable round but unless your rig is configured right (i.e. good repeatable scope and rifle) I wouldn't risk the shot. A lot of folks like to pretend at being some sort of sniper but what they fail to realize is that in war soldiers will take shots because there are greater things at stake - and they frequently don't hit on the first shot. Unless you're some sort of slob hunter who doesn't give a s**t, I think the guilt of wounded animal will make you regret taking such a long shot. Walking 400 yards+ to finish off an animal is also a long ways to go...
Click to expand...


^Well said!!
 
Bullet performance is an issue. I saw a 180 gr soft pointbullet recovered from a moose shot at 425 yards. It could have been re-loaded and fired again.

Partitions sound like the better choice.

As for taking the long range shot, your 400 yard self-imposed limit is probably the extreme. First, range estimation is difficult, and the difference between 375 and 425 is a clean miss. Do you carry a range finder?

The group I can shoot, off the bench, on a sharp clear aiming mark is quite different than the group I can shoot in the field.

My limit is 250 yards.
 
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Glock4ever said:
I like to shoot past 800 yards. I have a nice 12" gong which is about the size of the vitals on an animal and like Canuck525, my experience is the same. While drop is predictable, wind is a huge factor (even for my 338 LM) and there is really no reason to be taking shots at animals at 400 yards+ unless you have a specialized rig (I am assuming that you have an off rack hunting grade rifle). If you are able to get closer to the animal and ensure a cleaner kill, I would recommend that you do so. The 300 WM is a capable round but unless your rig is configured right (i.e. good repeatable scope and rifle) I wouldn't risk the shot. A lot of folks like to pretend at being some sort of sniper but what they fail to realize is that in war soldiers will take shots because there are greater things at stake - and they frequently don't hit on the first shot. Unless you're some sort of slob hunter who doesn't give a s**t, I think the guilt of wounded animal will make you regret taking such a long shot. Walking 400 yards+ to finish off an animal is also a long ways to go...
Click to expand...



The thing is the equipment has NOTHING to do with it.

Ok... it has something to do with it. It's the base requirements to make a shot with the information and trust your equipment will accurately reproduce your desired inputs. That being said, as mentioned, after about 500-600y, things very much become the shooter. The trajectory is set. It's up to your ability to read conditions that factor into accuracy at this point.

I've wacked the 800 or 1000y gong plenty of times before on a cold bore with 308. That being said I would NEVER consider an attempt at a living animal at that range. There is just too many unknowns at that distance, especially in the mountains where its EXTREMELY hard to read wind and condition changes even with all the weather meters, range finders, and buddies to input their readings.

I don't hunt at the moment, but I have thought a lot about it and have my limit I would take an animal. Through thousands of rounds of long range learning, it's much less than a lot on this board thing think they can shoot at living animals.

I'm actually surprised this thread has remained so civil. Generally you get a large portion of people saying they will shoot at animals 800+ yards. Like the 3 shot miss, 4th shot rear quarter hit on a moose in water at 800y with a 338 guy...
 
I did a long stint with LR hunting cause that was the type of terrain and opportunity offered to me locally. With the right (big) investment in optics, firearm, ammo, practise, very possible to engage at LR.

BUT many shooters forget that very important last point... PRACTISE. I was shooting close to 2000rds of centerfire and rimfire for any 1 shot I would take at game. I was in the same localities I would hunt. And I did on paper testing of my loads AT DISTANCE.

LR hunting has to have the same level of certainty as a shot at 150yds. If not, pass up on the shot and many days, that is exactly what I did. Winds were wrong or too high. Game presentation in areas not easy to recover, on and on it goes. I certainly saw more game.... just found it very rare when it was "right" to pull the trigger.

Many have offered scenerios that any ethical LR hunter would avoid anyways. And only practise and experience will give the hunter the "gut feeling" to know when engagement is possible with very very high hit probability or if this is just a hail mary.

I can say with certainty that under the conditions I WOULD engage game, shots out to 800yds were no problem.

Now on the flip side, those who really take LR hunting seriously invest massive quantities of time, money and effort in their endeavors. It can also be argued that many 2 shot a year hunters do more damage at across the road distance then those dedicated to taking game beyond point blank range.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
I think there's a distinction to be made between a LR hunter and someone who slings rounds at distant animals. A dedicated LR hunter will use a rangefinder, will know drops for their rig in real life (not just in a ballistic chart), choose not to shoot in unfavorable conditions, etc. An LR hunter at 600 yards is going to be more successful than a 1-2 shot a year hunter jerking the trigger on a 150 yard off-hand shot.
 
jrcarbine said:
Would it be realistic to say I could kill a coyote at 1000 yards with my .243 win using a 58 grain hornady v-max?
Click to expand...

The short answer is probably not. The 58 grain Vmax has such a poor BC that wind and every other variable will make hitting something the size of a coyote at 1000 yards extremely difficult.

Sockeye said:
When I was much younger I was told that the bullet must be traveling at 2,000 fps to be sure of it expanding on an animal.
That would limit many rifles to no more then 500 yds. or less I would think.
I have been away from shooting for a long time and am just returning.
I suspect the bullet manufactures are making a much better long range designed hunting bullet now.
What brand and type of bullet would on Elk out to 700 yds.
My kids want to take me after Elk this fall and I do not feel comfortable or confident with off the shelf core lock bullets in my 300 win mag that they told me is all that I need to get.
Any recommendations would be appreciated - I myself believe anything beyond 400 yds. will get only my admiration not my bullet.
It is their judgement I question.
Click to expand...

Off the shelf corelockts and similar bullets most likely are all you need to successful hunting elk, but to be successful at long ranges as you seem to be aware there are much better suited bullets. I know others have already mentioned it but bullet selection while important is not the most important aspect to becoming capable of killing game at long range. I think you're on the right track in being willing to let opportunities beyond 400 yards go, now the best thing you can do is begin practicing with your gun and load.
 
I agree completely with adriel that a large percentage of hunters go sight in their rifle once a year with half a dozen shots and call it good. For those of us who spend countlees hours and rounds shooting at 1000+ yards we are willing to take that 500-800 yard shot presuming all conditions are favorable and we are confident with the shot but definitely do not pull the trigger unless you are certain and you are being realistic about your capabilities.
 
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