Hard cast WW bullets OK for hunting?
- Thread starter tootall
- Start date
You always did with cast bullets, just more important if your hunting with them.
Just read all 7 pages.
So now I have to consider RPM as well as alloy hardness, Velocity, and sizing issues...
Yes Larry Gibson is very knowledgable in this subject.
I myself have put allot of time and effort into shooting cast bullets for hunting. I have used hard and soft alloys, and both work fine.
The softer alloys tend to upset/mushroom better and transfer more kinetic energy into the target animal.
If the bullet is placed into the vitals where it belongs, the result is typically the same.
This issue tends to reduce in severity as caliber increases. For example, a 308 caliber soft cast bullet will exand (in a perfect world), up to around .5"ish or a little better.
A 45 caliber bullet in a harder alloy essentially "Starts" creating a wound channel at a diameter close to were the soft 308 cast bullet finished expanding. For the most practical assesments, creating close to the same damage to the target animal.
A soft 45 caliber cast bullet will expand to a huge cross section! But at what point are we creating needles damage to achieve the same result? Its a subject millions have tried to debate over the years.
My personal understanding of this situation at this point, leads me to believe that bullet frontal geometry has as much to do with creating a wound channel as diameter (caliber to caliber).
A large flat metplat passing through a targets flesh forces the flesh to vacate the same space at the same time much more abruptly as it passes through. As compared to a round or semi-pointed design.
I have been using a lyman 311299 cast bullet design to hunt deer for years. Its on the harder side. (18lbs wheel weight lead +8 feet of 50/50lead/tin solder) air cooled.
They expand a "little", but they have anchored everythig I have shot with them. The furthest a deer has run is about 30 yards. And that was a deer at about 250 yards away when hit. So velocity would have been reduced a bit.
The load I use achieves around 2350fps with the 200 grain 311299, gas checked bullet. Lyman supermoly lube.
There is many other little things I do to achieve the performance if this load, but its too much typing to do today! Lol. If there is interest, I could copy and paste a previous post i made to share the fine details of my approach and load info.
I myself have put allot of time and effort into shooting cast bullets for hunting. I have used hard and soft alloys, and both work fine.
The softer alloys tend to upset/mushroom better and transfer more kinetic energy into the target animal.
If the bullet is placed into the vitals where it belongs, the result is typically the same.
This issue tends to reduce in severity as caliber increases. For example, a 308 caliber soft cast bullet will exand (in a perfect world), up to around .5"ish or a little better.
A 45 caliber bullet in a harder alloy essentially "Starts" creating a wound channel at a diameter close to were the soft 308 cast bullet finished expanding. For the most practical assesments, creating close to the same damage to the target animal.
A soft 45 caliber cast bullet will expand to a huge cross section! But at what point are we creating needles damage to achieve the same result? Its a subject millions have tried to debate over the years.
My personal understanding of this situation at this point, leads me to believe that bullet frontal geometry has as much to do with creating a wound channel as diameter (caliber to caliber).
A large flat metplat passing through a targets flesh forces the flesh to vacate the same space at the same time much more abruptly as it passes through. As compared to a round or semi-pointed design.
I have been using a lyman 311299 cast bullet design to hunt deer for years. Its on the harder side. (18lbs wheel weight lead +8 feet of 50/50lead/tin solder) air cooled.
They expand a "little", but they have anchored everythig I have shot with them. The furthest a deer has run is about 30 yards. And that was a deer at about 250 yards away when hit. So velocity would have been reduced a bit.
The load I use achieves around 2350fps with the 200 grain 311299, gas checked bullet. Lyman supermoly lube.
There is many other little things I do to achieve the performance if this load, but its too much typing to do today! Lol. If there is interest, I could copy and paste a previous post i made to share the fine details of my approach and load info.
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I use ww for all my bullets and find that they do not expand at all on flesh and small bones. go for a neck or head shot and you will have no problems downing your game. with the high cost of reloading bullets these days it is a lot cheaper to cast your own. I have over 1500 lbs of ww cast into bars ready to remelt into bullets. happy hunting.
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned cast hollow points yet
I am very interested in buying a hollow point mould for my 45-70 but am waiting until I find out about their effects on game.
Keep your soft lead and ww lead segregated - sizing is likely very important but it is absolutely possible to be too soft as well. The best lead for high speed cast rifle shooting is at least BHN 14-16, and heat treated to about BHN 18-20. WW is somewhere in the 12-14 BHN area (it varies considerably) so if you mix it with pure lead you'll be dropping down well below optimum. WW are perfect, esp if you heat treat. Info on heat treating here: http://www.lasc.us/heattreat.htm
Use good lube and pick bullets that have sufficient lube grooves - some bullets don't carry enough lube and are prone to leading at higher velocity. I have had good results with Red Dragon from Dragon Lube, the site sponsor.
You'll need a gas checked bullet for those speeds.
Antimony makes lead harder and tougher, tin makes lead flow better and more brittle. Learn the difference.
For 2500 fps there are going to be several variables in play that haven't been touched on yet that will also influence your success or lack of it. Powder selection, spin rate, peak pressure, alloy, bore condition are all part of the equation. At higher velocities I've had better results with slower powders than what would be optimum with a jacketed bullet.
High peak pressures tend to cause bullet shear and loss of accuracy = if you get to the point where your accuracy starts to drop off as velocity increases then you could be experiencing shear - this being caused by the bullets natural resistance to being spun from a non-spinning state, and insufficient strength to support the imparting of spin - basically the outside of the bullet starts to spin and interior doesn't keep up - so they part or "shear". If you push it hard enough you will eventually run into this. Slower powders with a lower peak pressure will help somewhat with preventing bullet shear in many cases. You know you have shear when your bore is leaded in the first inch.
2500 fps is do-able, but not with every bullet and not in every rifle. I'm got over 2300 fps out of 280gr cast in 9.3x57, and got over 2300 in 9.3x57 using the same bullet, all without leading. In the x57 the best accuracy was found about 1850 fps which also happily corresponds very well with the fixed open sights on that early Huqvarna rifle. In the 9.3x62 the best accuracy was about 2200-2300 fps and dropped off after that, with traces of shear at 2400 and lots of it at 2500 fps.
I'm working on a new 458 winmag and have test fired a few 485 gr cast bullets in the 2100 fps range with room for velocity increase. Need to do more shooting but so far accuracy is "promising", which means i haven't run into a wall yet - and that does happen with cast bullets.
30-06 and .308 are good cartridges for cast bullets and there is a lot of molds to choose from. HP bullets work at lower velocity but in my experience aren't so useful at rifle velocities. A flat meplat will work quite nicely on game. There is some expansion with bullets in the 18-20 BHN range, not so much when you get up to the 30 BHN range.
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I have a lyman HP mold in 458 diameter... it's pretty nice, but I'm reduced to casting a single bullet at a time... I also know them make bigger holes in telephone poles than my flat point 405 gr ones do...
Yes please!!!!!
What model of mould are you using? How many shots to bring down the pole? LOL
The HP 45-70 bullets I made didn't work very well at anything over 1500 fps. Below that it was possible to see some expansion without the petals breaking off immediately upon contact.
What velocity and what alloy were your HP 45-70 bullets? Interesting that they were soft enough to expand but tough enough to stay together in something as hard as a telephone pole, in fact it's incredible.
Here is a copy of a previous post I made some time ago. Hopefully it is useful to some cast shooters.
A cast bullet loader can manipulate various aspects of his load combination to suit thier needs. When a cast bullet load fails to perform, it is usually one or a combination of component failures.
Over pressure/acceleration can deform the bullet base to the point of gas leakage between the bullet surface and the bore surface. This can cause the gasses to "wash" (so to speak) lead from the bullet bearing surface. This can cause a few issues. Such as erratic pressures as expanding gases can squirt past the bullet/bore surface interface that cause inaccuracies. A bullet that is damaged during the firing sequence can have gyroscopic instabilities due to moved/damaged material. Causing an increased imbalance, Yawing or tumbling.
A damaged cast bullet base will leak expanding gasses unevenly around the bullet base circumference as it leaves the bore and create a gas induced/influenced tipping off bore axis. The bullet will then spend the rest of its flight trying to restabilise on its original axis/center of gravity.
The best cast bullet loads maintain a balance that allow a loads components to work together. As you increase pressures, the weakest link will eventually surface.
If the expanding gasses leak past the bullet base, this can allow the lube to be sprayed ahead of the bullet as well. When the lube is not in the lube groove, it cannot offer the cast bullet lubrication, or the hydraulic bullet surface support.
I tend to doubt that combustion temperatures affect/cause much melting due to the extreamly short time frames of which these temps are imparted to the bullet base. You can pass your hand through a flame, and not get burnt if you keep it moving fast.(very low exposure time).
Pressure on the alloy, on the other hand, is a bit different story.
A full lube groove can offer allot of load enhancing benefits.
I shoot my 200 grain Lyman 311299 cast bullet at velocities as high as 2425fps. In my 308win cast rifle. At this speed and pressure, the components are just "starting" to yield. The accuracy is around 1-1/2 to 2" at 100 yards.
When I drop my pressures and velocity down to around 2350fps, my average group size improves noticably. I have had many groups well under an inch, and some around 1.25".
This load exhibits some great ballistic uniformity for cast! I have shot this load clear out to 900 yards. Only after 800 yards does the accuracy start to decay rapidly. I am not at home, so my precise records are not available at this time, but 1.5 to 2.5 MOA "ish" is the rule past 500 yards.
My alloy is 18 pounds wheel weight lead +8 feet of 50/50 lead/tin solder. Air cooled.
Bullet is sized to .310" and lubed with Lymans Super Moly.
Gas checks I have tested with my load combinations are brass,copper and aluminum.
As can be expected, my maximum velocities that can reached while maintaining decent accuracy, varies with the gas check material as well. Aluminum cant get me much past 1800fps before failing with this alloy.
Both Copper and Brass were able to reach the 2425fps level, but brass gas checked loads were more consistent on the chronygraph. But not by much.
Powder that is "PREFERRED" is IMR4831. This is not the typical powder associated with cast shooting, but more for jacketed bullets.
I dont feel most failures of a cast bullets base are caused by melting due to combustion temperature, but extrusion caused by the loads expanding gases surpassing the alloys physical elastic/compressible limit. (Surpassing the relative yield point of the alloy). The gasses will simply go to the point of least resistance, where ever on the bullet to bore surface that happens to be. Both the Pressure limits "AND" the timing of the maximum pressures affect the bullets ability to accelerate without damaging the bullets alloy. A push rather than a kick, so to speak.
Add to this mix, that the bullet surface is exposed to a significant "Torquing" force from the rifling. The more gradual the gas pressure application, the better for the cast bullet to bore interface seal preservation. This force that can be applied without any deformation of the given alloy is basically defined as its "SHEAR" Strength. Twist rate can influence this torque relationship.
When I used the powders most commonly reccomended for cast bullets, as I approached near the maximum charges reccomended for that powder, the accuracy would start to fall off. As To be expected. The pressures were surpassing the bullet/lube/ and gas checks ability to seal the gases during the acceleration of the firing sequence.
Using another slower powder allowed me to achieve a higher velocity before the accuracy started to fail.
With IMR4831, I believe that the slower burning characteristics allowed the expanding gasses to apply the pressure over a longer , more progressive burn period. Thus delaying the highest pressure point at a higher velocity (encountering far less inertia resistance).
Less of an impact/g force imparted on the bullet base and the alloys yield point pressure. A softer-longer start/push.
To initiate an adquate pressure to get the IMR4831 to burn fully, I seated the bullets into the rifling firmly. With this technique, the rifle shoots great, and the bore stays suprisingly clean and free of powder residue.
In a nutshell, maximising your velocity with any lead based bullet will depend on your alloys yield point strength, and how fast and high the pressures are applied.
Fast burning powders will produce higher pressures at lower velocities, limiting an alloys velocity potential while achieving acceptable accuracy. A sharp kick so to speak.
Having the bullet sized .001-.002" larger than bore diameter will also help seal the combustion gasses, and offer the accelerating bullet support to reduce any kind of bullet shape "slump". The cast bullet obturates slightly during the combustion and accelleration of the firing sequence. This, in turn, causes the bullets diameter to swell (obturate) and compresses the bullet bearing surface more firmly to the bore surface. Pressure and acceleration, if well balanced can produce great load performance.
Some bullet designs will shoot better in some barrels than others. The only way to know which one your rifle likes is to try them.
Shooting cast can be as easy or as challenging as you desire. Just have fun with it.
I hope this info was useful to someone.
A cast bullet loader can manipulate various aspects of his load combination to suit thier needs. When a cast bullet load fails to perform, it is usually one or a combination of component failures.
Over pressure/acceleration can deform the bullet base to the point of gas leakage between the bullet surface and the bore surface. This can cause the gasses to "wash" (so to speak) lead from the bullet bearing surface. This can cause a few issues. Such as erratic pressures as expanding gases can squirt past the bullet/bore surface interface that cause inaccuracies. A bullet that is damaged during the firing sequence can have gyroscopic instabilities due to moved/damaged material. Causing an increased imbalance, Yawing or tumbling.
A damaged cast bullet base will leak expanding gasses unevenly around the bullet base circumference as it leaves the bore and create a gas induced/influenced tipping off bore axis. The bullet will then spend the rest of its flight trying to restabilise on its original axis/center of gravity.
The best cast bullet loads maintain a balance that allow a loads components to work together. As you increase pressures, the weakest link will eventually surface.
If the expanding gasses leak past the bullet base, this can allow the lube to be sprayed ahead of the bullet as well. When the lube is not in the lube groove, it cannot offer the cast bullet lubrication, or the hydraulic bullet surface support.
I tend to doubt that combustion temperatures affect/cause much melting due to the extreamly short time frames of which these temps are imparted to the bullet base. You can pass your hand through a flame, and not get burnt if you keep it moving fast.(very low exposure time).
Pressure on the alloy, on the other hand, is a bit different story.
A full lube groove can offer allot of load enhancing benefits.
I shoot my 200 grain Lyman 311299 cast bullet at velocities as high as 2425fps. In my 308win cast rifle. At this speed and pressure, the components are just "starting" to yield. The accuracy is around 1-1/2 to 2" at 100 yards.
When I drop my pressures and velocity down to around 2350fps, my average group size improves noticably. I have had many groups well under an inch, and some around 1.25".
This load exhibits some great ballistic uniformity for cast! I have shot this load clear out to 900 yards. Only after 800 yards does the accuracy start to decay rapidly. I am not at home, so my precise records are not available at this time, but 1.5 to 2.5 MOA "ish" is the rule past 500 yards.
My alloy is 18 pounds wheel weight lead +8 feet of 50/50 lead/tin solder. Air cooled.
Bullet is sized to .310" and lubed with Lymans Super Moly.
Gas checks I have tested with my load combinations are brass,copper and aluminum.
As can be expected, my maximum velocities that can reached while maintaining decent accuracy, varies with the gas check material as well. Aluminum cant get me much past 1800fps before failing with this alloy.
Both Copper and Brass were able to reach the 2425fps level, but brass gas checked loads were more consistent on the chronygraph. But not by much.
Powder that is "PREFERRED" is IMR4831. This is not the typical powder associated with cast shooting, but more for jacketed bullets.
I dont feel most failures of a cast bullets base are caused by melting due to combustion temperature, but extrusion caused by the loads expanding gases surpassing the alloys physical elastic/compressible limit. (Surpassing the relative yield point of the alloy). The gasses will simply go to the point of least resistance, where ever on the bullet to bore surface that happens to be. Both the Pressure limits "AND" the timing of the maximum pressures affect the bullets ability to accelerate without damaging the bullets alloy. A push rather than a kick, so to speak.
Add to this mix, that the bullet surface is exposed to a significant "Torquing" force from the rifling. The more gradual the gas pressure application, the better for the cast bullet to bore interface seal preservation. This force that can be applied without any deformation of the given alloy is basically defined as its "SHEAR" Strength. Twist rate can influence this torque relationship.
When I used the powders most commonly reccomended for cast bullets, as I approached near the maximum charges reccomended for that powder, the accuracy would start to fall off. As To be expected. The pressures were surpassing the bullet/lube/ and gas checks ability to seal the gases during the acceleration of the firing sequence.
Using another slower powder allowed me to achieve a higher velocity before the accuracy started to fail.
With IMR4831, I believe that the slower burning characteristics allowed the expanding gasses to apply the pressure over a longer , more progressive burn period. Thus delaying the highest pressure point at a higher velocity (encountering far less inertia resistance).
Less of an impact/g force imparted on the bullet base and the alloys yield point pressure. A softer-longer start/push.
To initiate an adquate pressure to get the IMR4831 to burn fully, I seated the bullets into the rifling firmly. With this technique, the rifle shoots great, and the bore stays suprisingly clean and free of powder residue.
In a nutshell, maximising your velocity with any lead based bullet will depend on your alloys yield point strength, and how fast and high the pressures are applied.
Fast burning powders will produce higher pressures at lower velocities, limiting an alloys velocity potential while achieving acceptable accuracy. A sharp kick so to speak.
Having the bullet sized .001-.002" larger than bore diameter will also help seal the combustion gasses, and offer the accelerating bullet support to reduce any kind of bullet shape "slump". The cast bullet obturates slightly during the combustion and accelleration of the firing sequence. This, in turn, causes the bullets diameter to swell (obturate) and compresses the bullet bearing surface more firmly to the bore surface. Pressure and acceleration, if well balanced can produce great load performance.
Some bullet designs will shoot better in some barrels than others. The only way to know which one your rifle likes is to try them.
Shooting cast can be as easy or as challenging as you desire. Just have fun with it.
I hope this info was useful to someone.
Additional information about the load I use from post #25
I lube the long bore riding noses with lee liquid allox. Two coats.
When the cartridge is chambered, The allox on the nose will flow slightly and center the bullet sort of hydrauliclly. This offers a long bore riding cast bullet the ultimate form support and alignment during the severe acceleration of the firing sequence.
I have used aluminum gas checks, and they work fine, but I find they cannot reach the same velocities and maintain the same degree of accuracy in my rifle. I can only assume that it has to do with the alloy strength of the aluminum gas check as opposed to the copper gascheck.
I have even used Brass shim stock for making gaschecks. It works as well as my copper gas checks.
These are my some of my personal views and approaches to cast bullet rifle shooting.
I give the case a slight crimp, not too firm.
The only draw back of shooting a cast bullet seated long, is that if you try to remove the loaded round from the chamber, some times the bullet stays in the throat of the barrel and powder can spill out of the case.
I approach this problem by simply (assuming a bolt action is being used) lifting the bolt untill it fully unlocks, and then point the rifle straight verticle. Slowly open the action and catch the case as it is ejected.
I keep a cleaning rod at my bench, when I am target shooting, or at my vehicle when I am hunting. It works just fine for me.
I lube the long bore riding noses with lee liquid allox. Two coats.
When the cartridge is chambered, The allox on the nose will flow slightly and center the bullet sort of hydrauliclly. This offers a long bore riding cast bullet the ultimate form support and alignment during the severe acceleration of the firing sequence.
I have used aluminum gas checks, and they work fine, but I find they cannot reach the same velocities and maintain the same degree of accuracy in my rifle. I can only assume that it has to do with the alloy strength of the aluminum gas check as opposed to the copper gascheck.
I have even used Brass shim stock for making gaschecks. It works as well as my copper gas checks.
These are my some of my personal views and approaches to cast bullet rifle shooting.
I give the case a slight crimp, not too firm.
The only draw back of shooting a cast bullet seated long, is that if you try to remove the loaded round from the chamber, some times the bullet stays in the throat of the barrel and powder can spill out of the case.
I approach this problem by simply (assuming a bolt action is being used) lifting the bolt untill it fully unlocks, and then point the rifle straight verticle. Slowly open the action and catch the case as it is ejected.
I keep a cleaning rod at my bench, when I am target shooting, or at my vehicle when I am hunting. It works just fine for me.
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I didn't say that they stayed together... I said that they made a bigger hole... I could have been more specific and added that I was referring to the exit hole... I've never actually recovered one... The 330 gr hp was pushed by a full case of imr 4064. I don't have a chrony. I just shoot what seems accurate. Alloy was water dropped straight clip on wheel weights.
I was shooting at deer, telephone poles are extinct in Alberta. In game animals the hp bullets made a fckin mess at rifle velocity and I don't use them for hunting anymore. But if I ever need to shoot a pole I would definitely use a hp.
I was shooting at deer, telephone poles are extinct in Alberta. In game animals the hp bullets made a fckin mess at rifle velocity and I don't use them for hunting anymore. But if I ever need to shoot a pole I would definitely use a hp.
While telephone poles might be extinct in their natural habitat, we have a small place where some of them ended up for storage...
While telephone poles might be extinct in their natural habitat, we have a small place where some of them ended up for storage...
So they're not extinct in Manitoba yet, only endangered.
All the rural telephone lines went underground about 40 years ago here. Can't recall seeing a telephone pole since i was very young.
