cold bore shooting

pspearn

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I was out shooting today with my savage 10tr 308 for the fifth or sixth time and i have noticed a pattern that is frustrating to me.
I usually shoot between 40-60 rounds when i'm out, i've noticed that i am shooting about 5 inches high for the first 4 or 5 rounds or so but by the end of every session i have it dialed in to 3 inch groups at 300 yards witch i am happy with for now. but its the first few shots that always get me frustrated because i know the last time i was out i was shooting well by the end of the day. so my question is could it be cold bore shooting issues or am i over cleaning my rifle every time and removing too much copper fouling or could it be something else.. i know it could be a lot and this is a challenging sport.
any help or advise would be much appreciated.
 
Did you clean the bore before shooting it? If so, those five or so shots are probably before the barrel is fouled. I've noticed that a fouled barrel usually shoots better than a clean one.
 
i was in the habit of cleaning the bore after every range session. So i should be doing it less often or do i just deal with the first few shots being off?
what do you guys do?
ammo isnt cheap so i like when every shot counts.
 
I will start doing it less often and see if that makes a difference. thank you for your input. its not easy learning this sport on my own.
 
Accurate Shooter has a ton of great articles on every aspect of the sport, you may find it helpful.

+1 on the cleaning advice. Usually about every 300 rounds for me seems to be the sweet spot.

Can't recommend Wipe Out enough for cleaning either. Saves thousands of cleaning rod passes over the life of the barrel.
 
Make a habit of cleaning your rifle at the end of your session (or every X sessions) and foul it before you leave. Waiting till groups open up is a pretty silly policy IMO. I don't want my rifle telling me it needs to be cleaned in the middle of a match or at some other inopportune time. I want to be able to count on it's performance when I take it out.

Also, unless you're shooting groups, you won't know that they have opened up.
 
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Right, I think that may be too literally interpreting what's being said.

My understanding of what's meant by "when groups open up" is that you know when that point will be, and clean just prior to it. So if three times in a row, your groups start to open at around 300 rounds, that's a pretty consistent number to use for predicting the maximum cleaning interval. It's not that you just keep banging away till it falls apart, and go "gosh, gee, I better clean my bore"

Presuming one keeps a logbook, it's pretty easy to figure out round count since you cleaned, and if you can get through the next shooting session before you hit your number. Not rocket surgery, and it ensures you get the most mileage out of every cleaning and thus do it the minimum amount possible. I think cleaning a bore at the end of a 50 round session when you know it could go another 250 is pretty silly myself - sort of like changing the oil on your car early, except if oil changes also caused wear.

Anyway, that's how I always understood it; not that you sit there like a dumb passive lump waiting for bore fouling to affect things, but that you know how long that will take and clean just prior.
 
It's a thing over on SnipersHide. There are poster that like to brag that they've literally never cleaned their rifle and will only do so when "it tells them it needs to be cleaned".

With a barrel, how it performed in the past is not an indication of how it will perform in the future. How long you can go between cleanings will get shorter as you put more rounds on the barrel. Your car will also start burning oil between oil changes as it ages and you will need to add oil when you fill up. Something you didn't need to do when it was new.
 
what do you guys do?

Myself, I only clean after two or three range sessions. When I do, it will be in the middle of a range session. That way after I clean, I can get those fouling shots off right away. And yes, I find it takes a few rounds to tighten the group up again. I find that way, my cold bore groups are just as tight as they are with a warm barrel.
 
It's a thing over on SnipersHide. There are poster that like to brag that they've literally never cleaned their rifle and will only do so when "it tells them it needs to be cleaned".

With a barrel, how it performed in the past is not an indication of how it will perform in the future. How long you can go between cleanings will get shorter as you put more rounds on the barrel. Your car will also start burning oil between oil changes as it ages and you will need to add oil when you fill up. Something you didn't need to do when it was new.

Right. Well. Huh. People do the darndest things.

I always just operated like cleaning is any routine maintenance; it'll have a point at which it needs to be done. Figure out that point and do it just before performance drops off. Just as premature oil changes waste money and time, so does premature or excessive barrel cleaning.

Hasn't been my experience that cleaning intervals shrink as barrels get rounds on them, just the reverse in fact. After a few hundred rounds copper fouling decreases noticeably and that carries on until you burn the throat out and it's done or time for a rechambering. I'm just over 3000 rounds into a T3 Var barrel for example, clean no longer than every 300 rounds and usually pretty close to that mark. It picked up noticeably more copper fouling till the second cleaning; now it's two Wipe Out applications and the patches come out white. Been like that for oh, 2750 rounds now. I can't recall a single barrel I've ever shot out, or just put a lot of rounds on, needing more cleaning as it was used.

Funny you mention it, but... When my Guzzi started consuming oil at 40,000 km, off came the heads and jugs, in went the new rings and stem seals, lapped the valves for good measure and presto, no more oil consumed. Oil consumption is the motor's way of telling you there's work to do; it's not something they should do when they're old, either. I have never noticed an analagous effect with rifle barrels. They seem to work until they don't, no maintenance beyond cleaning needed.
 
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Hello Guys,

Very interesting discussion indeed.
From my part, I do clean my rifles after each use and experience the same issue than the OP.

For you guys who don't clean the bore after each session, do you, at least, drop some oil in the bore before storage ?

The gap between two range sessions for me is sometime quite long and I am afraid that keeping the bore fouled might degrade it. Am I wrong ?

Thank you
 
Hello Guys,

Very interesting discussion indeed.
From my part, I do clean my rifles after each use and experience the same issue than the OP.

For you guys who don't clean the bore after each session, do you, at least, drop some oil in the bore before storage ?

The gap between two range sessions for me is sometime quite long and I am afraid that keeping the bore fouled might degrade it. Am I wrong ?

Thank you

I've been running a Scout Supply Company custom rifle for about a year now, ~700 rounds through it. It gives me phenomenal accuracy(.2-.3 MOA @ 200y when I do my part) up to the 125-150 round mark, then the groups opens up. I will then clean it. If I don't plan on shooting it for a couple of months or more, I'll give it a cleaning & lube job so it's up & ready when I take it out. It may take 5-7 shots to get it to it's full potential then but there's no way I'm going to leave a dirty rifle in storage for months. JMHO
 
Hasn't been my experience that cleaning intervals shrink as barrels get rounds on them, just the reverse in fact. After a few hundred rounds copper fouling decreases noticeably and that carries on until you burn the throat out and it's done or time for a rechambering. I'm just over 3000 rounds into a T3 Var barrel for example, clean no longer than every 300 rounds and usually pretty close to that mark. It picked up noticeably more copper fouling till the second cleaning; now it's two Wipe Out applications and the patches come out white. Been like that for oh, 2750 rounds now. I can't recall a single barrel I've ever shot out, or just put a lot of rounds on, needing more cleaning as it was used.

Funny you mention it, but... When my Guzzi started consuming oil at 40,000 km, off came the heads and jugs, in went the new rings and stem seals, lapped the valves for good measure and presto, no more oil consumed. Oil consumption is the motor's way of telling you there's work to do; it's not something they should do when they're old, either. I have never noticed an analagous effect with rifle barrels. They seem to work until they don't, no maintenance beyond cleaning needed.

What caliber? Clearly not one of the zippier ones. 3k on a 308 or a 223 is still a new barrel. A hot 6mm will not see 3k. At the beginning of it's life it can go hundreds of rounds between cleanings. By the end, if you're shooting the long shank heavy bullets at high velocity, some of them will turn into a puff of smoke half way to the target if you let the barrel get too fouled. I've learned that one the hard way... many F-Open shooters have too, pushing long bullets at high speeds. Throats crack over time, cracking strips off copper, rough copper sticks to lands and the copper on the lands tears more copper off the next bullet, pressure and friction rise. A maintenance routine is fine for casual shooters. A competitive shooter or someone who is relying on the rifle will base things on a known good starting point, not a historical end point. I've never shot a custom barrel that required two applications of Wipeout to clean it. Most will come clean after a few patches with Butche's once they're broken in. I can't imagine a barrel that needs two applications of Wipeout to clean would shoot very well to begin with...

Those of us with lathes, who chamber our own barrels, will set them back when they start showing signs of wear, much like your engine maintenance (if it's a cartridge with a lifespan that makes it worthwhile).
 
I'll admit I'm a maintenance nut and clean after every range trip. Fully expect groups to be so-so next time out, usually 5-6 rounds settles thing down. Before hunting season always shoot rifles to check zero and to foul barrels, don't clean again until seasons over.
 
What caliber? Clearly not one of the zippier ones. 3k on a 308 or a 223 is still a new barrel. A hot 6mm will not see 3k.

Good guess, the example picked is .223. I'd say 3k rounds is what, maybe around 1/3 of the service life I expect to get from it. It's in the prime of life; which is why I picked it as an example to speak to your suggestion that
"How long you can go between cleanings will get shorter as you put more rounds on the barrel."
If you were saying that at the end of a barrel's service life, throat cracking will lead to copper deposition which requires more frequent cleaning, that I wholeheartedly agree with. But the way I read what's written is that you're saying there's a sort of linear, continual decrease in cleaning times as the barrel ages which is not my experience. Even with barrel burners if you want to use one of those as an example; the principle holds true.

At the beginning of it's life it can go hundreds of rounds between cleanings. By the end, if you're shooting the long shank heavy bullets at high velocity, some of them will turn into a puff of smoke half way to the target if you let the barrel get too fouled. I've learned that one the hard way... many F-Open shooters have too, pushing long bullets at high speeds.

Well, then, that's a very good data point - if we've narrowed it to shooters using long for caliber bullets pushed to high (so let's read that as wildcat, if we can presume factory chamberings would be "standard") velocity as those who require cleaning after every session, I guess that means folks shooting outside of that will get by fine with interval cleaning.

Throats crack over time, cracking strips off copper, rough copper sticks to lands and the copper on the lands tears more copper off the next bullet,
pressure and friction rise.

Absolutely. I guess I just consider that the point to replace or set back and re chamber, not engage in more aggressive cleaning.

A maintenance routine is fine for casual shooters.

Ok, so then we're in agreement that this answer's the OP's question, and it's the appropriate advice to follow. Casual shooter is sure what he sounds like to me, which is why I suggested it. It's also almost certain that a casual shooter more likely to wear the barrel from over cleaning - as I would submit cleaning every 60 rounds on a .308 is - than they are overshooting.

I've never shot a custom barrel that required two applications of Wipeout to clean it. Most will come clean after a few patches with Butche's once they're broken in.

Me neither. We're not talking about a custom barrel though. Given that the OP is asking about a factory Savage 10, I figured something in the same ballpark was the most relevant comparison to use. In any case, for me, two Wipe out applications means it takes one to clean and one to confirm you got it completely clean; I guess you could get by with just the one, but given that merely squirting it down the bore takes no toll, and three or four patches to dry is no drama, it's a small price to pay for the piece of mind. If it took more than one to clean, that would make it a minimum of three applications.

I can't imagine a barrel that needs two applications of Wipeout to clean would shoot very well to begin with...

Well, I guess it all depends on your definition of "very well" - I'm sure a BR shooter would be disappointed. For a factory off the shelf practice & varmint rifle, I'll consider consistent .6 to .7 with factory ammo and consistent .4 - .5s with handloads as more than sufficient. Certainly it can't hold a candle to a custom rig. That's why custom rifles exist I suppose, otherwise there wouldn't be much need to buy them.
 
Hello Guys,

Very interesting discussion indeed.
From my part, I do clean my rifles after each use and experience the same issue than the OP.

For you guys who don't clean the bore after each session, do you, at least, drop some oil in the bore before storage ?

The gap between two range sessions for me is sometime quite long and I am afraid that keeping the bore fouled might degrade it. Am I wrong ?

Thank you

100% agree with what Harry says.

If it's not going into storage - we have the same "couple of months" time line - then it's left alone. That's for the barrel I mean; the action and metal are cleaned & oiled (same thing actually, I prefer Froglube) every time of course. If I lived by the seaside, I bet my regimen would change.

I've been running a Scout Supply Company custom rifle for about a year now, ~700 rounds through it. It gives me phenomenal accuracy(.2-.3 MOA @ 200y when I do my part) up to the 125-150 round mark, then the groups opens up.

Sounds like a very nice rifle.
 
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