45-70 brass life??

'Boo

'Boo

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After reloading for bottleneck rifle cartridges for many years I purchased a Marlin 1895SS in 45-70 a few months ago.

This is my first experience with straight-walled rifle cases and while reloading for them is not difficult I was under the assumption that case life on these cases should be fairly long.

I am loading some pretty stiff loads - 49 grains of IMR 4198 under the Hornady 350 grain RN bullet. At ~2050 fps it is plenty fast. I had the rifle up to the max load 50 grains of IMR 4198 as shown on the Hodgdon website but accuracy was not as good as the slightly slower load.

The problem - if indeed it is a problem - is that I have to trim the Winchester brass after every firing. Some cases with only 5 loadings have been tossed into the recycle bin as they were starting to thin above the web.

I guess my question is if this brass life is typical with these warmish loads or if maybe I have just happened on a bag of soft brass.

Comments?
 
I find myself suspicious of two things; first would be headspace or spring in the action. My suspicion would be that when shot with a hot load, the front of the case sticks to the chamber wall while the base moves backwards. The second possibility would be that you are working the brass a lot when you resize it but that would be a distant second.
I am not sure how long my cases last but more or less they seem to go on a long time. For things like 32-40 and 38-56, I anneal them every 4 or 5 shots and alway shoot mild loads usually in tight chambers.

cheers mooncoon
 
I use warmish smokeless loads in the 45/70, always with cast bullets and case life is real good, I use WW for smokeless and R-P for Black Powder, the BP ones will last forever if I wash them with soap and hot water after use. With a jacketed bullet the pressure may be a problem or case is stretching when it should be releasing the bullet. You may want to try cast bullets and/or a powder like AA2015, RL-7,H-335, Varget, etc., they are slower burning and not so pressure sensitive. One other thing...are you cleaning any lube from cases before firing?
 
Ben, all my cases go back into the tumbler after resizing.

I still have a couple dozen "virgin" cases on hand so I think I may take your advice and work up again with a slower powder. I see IMR lists a load for the 350 Hornady SP using 4064 that should give 2000 fps out of a 22" barrel. It should be fun seeing how easy it is to get 62 grains of powder in 45-70 case. ;)
 
Load with cast lead and black powder, you could probably reload them 50 or more times.

And besides, smoke rings and flames are cool :D
 
I've used a lot of toasty loads with 300gr jacketed bullets over stiff charges of 322, and haven't had any case life problems. I only size the cases as minimally as I can get away with. In my gun, even with stout charges, there's plenty of carbon around the neck of the case, indicating to me that the brass isn't sticking in the chamber
 
[QUOTE='Boo]After reloading for bottleneck rifle cartridges for many years I purchased a Marlin 1895SS in 45-70 a few months ago.

This is my first experience with straight-walled rifle cases and while reloading for them is not difficult I was under the assumption that case life on these cases should be fairly long.

I am loading some pretty stiff loads - 49 grains of IMR 4198 under the Hornady 350 grain RN bullet. At ~2050 fps it is plenty fast. I had the rifle up to the max load 50 grains of IMR 4198 as shown on the Hodgdon website but accuracy was not as good as the slightly slower load.

The problem - if indeed it is a problem - is that I have to trim the Winchester brass after every firing. Some cases with only 5 loadings have been tossed into the recycle bin as they were starting to thin above the web.

I guess my question is if this brass life is typical with these warmish loads or if maybe I have just happened on a bag of soft brass.

Comments?[/QUOTE]

As you may know, this cartridge was adopted in 1860's as a black powder load. While modern brass is certainly superior to early components, the working pressures for this load have not been updated to my knowledge and are still at 28,000 PSi, much lower that the max that could be achieved in this cartridge. Problem is, manufaturers have to follow these low and antique specs because they don't know if their ammo will be shot in an old "clunker" (no disrespect intended to owners of fine old era firearms) or a modern state of the art rifle. The case stretching indicates you're stressing your brass, I would recommend lowering your loads to save on the case dismise...they're not cheap to re-purchase.
 
'Boo- Python has nailed part of the problem quite nicely. The other is that the Marlins have been known to set the locking bolt/bolt recess back a bit under heavy loads leading to case stretch/headspace issues. Any I've heard about have actually seen quite a bit of very heavy loads to cause that. Have not actually seen one that it has occured in myself so it's internet talk and I can't verify it. Most people sample the recoil of that type of load and back off before damage is done, I think.
 
I shoot 40 grains of H4198 under a 420 grain gas checked cast bullet, I can't count how many times my brass have been reloaded. Hot loads don't kill any faster and only shorten brass life and put strain on the rifle and shooter.
I am confident that the 1635 fps that I get out of my Marlin GS will take any game I go after.:)
 
I also use Winchester brass with simalar loads and have to trim after each loading as well. The problem is that the thin Winchester brass bulges at the "pressure ring" due to the high pressure (for that thickness of brass) and the slopy chamber in my Marlin. When the brass is resized the fat case is squished down and becomes longer. I only use my brass 3 times then throw it out.

If I remember correctly Remington brass is much thicker walled near the case head. It does not bulge as badly and as a result does not "grow" as much with each firing. The thicker brass results is substantaly less powder capacity. Enough so that if you were to put your already hot load in Remington cases you would be above the genaraly (but not officaly) accepted limit of 43,000psi for the Marlin 1895 chamberd in 45-70.


When loading near the upper limits for the Marlin in 45-70 NEVER take internet or even Hogdon loads for granted. Big difference in brass, and I have seen big difference between rifles as well. Realy easy to put 50,000psi loads in these things and not know it.

For what it is worth, I get close to the same velocity with the same brass (different lot) 5g less powder (different lot) and same bullet than you, possibly with a shorter bbl to boot.
 
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[QUOTE='Boo]Ben, all my cases go back into the tumbler after resizing.

I still have a couple dozen "virgin" cases on hand so I think I may take your advice and work up again with a slower powder. I see IMR lists a load for the 350 Hornady SP using 4064 that should give 2000 fps out of a 22" barrel. It should be fun seeing how easy it is to get 62 grains of powder in 45-70 case. ;)[/QUOTE]

In the 444 I find that RL #7 seems to get the same or better velocities as other powders (eg: H335) without having compressed loads, and the brass shows less signs of pressure.

The beartooth bullets gang had no problem exceeding 2000fps with a 330 grain bullet out of an 18.5" 444 barrel, you should be able to do it with ease in your 22" 45/70. :)
 
python357 said:
As you may know, this cartridge was adopted in 1860's as a black powder load. While modern brass is certainly superior to early components, the working pressures for this load have not been updated to my knowledge and are still at 28,000 PSi, much lower that the max that could be achieved in this cartridge. Problem is, manufaturers have to follow these low and antique specs because they don't know if their ammo will be shot in an old "clunker" (no disrespect intended to owners of fine old era firearms) or a modern state of the art rifle. The case stretching indicates you're stressing your brass, I would recommend lowering your loads to save on the case dismise...they're not cheap to re-purchase.
Click to expand...

Not to be a #### but "1873"...
 
308norma said:
Anyone using starline? What's the expect brass life?
I'm mostly shooting light trail boss and hard cast but us any 1 brass better?
Click to expand...

I use both Remington and Winchester for BPCR shooting. With light loads at BP pressures you will probably have indefinite brass life. The Remington tends to be heavier than Winchester which makes it my preferred brass for BPCR.

But yes, unacceptable thread bump. Bring on the sack of oranges!
 
sunray said:
Case life for any cartridge is directly related to how hot the load is. Hot loads reduce case life.
Click to expand...

Bingo!

When any cartridge, straight wall, tapered, or bottleneck, is loaded to maximum pressure, 5 reloads before the primer pockets expand is about all you can expect, and even at that you'll be disappointed sometimes. The solution to the problem is lighter loads or more brass.
 
308norma said:
Anyone using starline? What's the expect brass life?
I'm mostly shooting light trail boss and hard cast but us any 1 brass better?
Click to expand...

If you are shooting light loads then it'll last a long time. Certainly more than 20 or more firings. At black powder equivalent pressures they may never wear out.

Back when I thought it was fun to shoot hot loads out of my Marlin I'd keep the cases until they were trimmed three times.

Chris.
 
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