Newbie buying first Traditions rifle musket: Questions!

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Musketman

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Greetings all, I'm a Canadian, completely new to shooting with zero licenses of any sort. I've tried to do as much reading up on the subject myself as possible but it would give me great piece of mind just to have some ideas confirmed by the people here and a few questions answered.

As far as I understand it I don't need a firearms license to buy a flintlock and I can also freely purchase the balls and black powder needed to shoot though the amount of powder I can have is regulated. Can someone confirm that?

The rifle muskets sold by Traditions seem to be affordable and beginner friendly. If any one has an experiences with these I'd love to hear about them. I'm looking at the Kentucky rifle specifically.

Other than the rifle, powder, balls, patches, flint is there any other gear that people would advise I have?
Going to also add the traditions shooters kit on top of that.

Thank you in for your time!
 
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There is a mandatory course you need to take. For your non restricted license, then you need to pass a theory and practical test after the course (same day). Then you do all your paperwork and the RCMP takes a while to send you your license. Then you buy your gear. You will learn all about flint locks at your course so dont bother asking questions until youve done your course, it will answer a lot of them.
 
First feel free to ask lots of questions. Second, for a flintlock I don't believe you need a pal to buy one, just procussion cap BP rifles(don't quote me though check the firearms act) and last you will need a pal to buy black powder.
 
Never been asked for PAL for black powder, just ID, not even at Canadian Tire when buying Pyrodex for my percussion guns. Black powder is administered under Natural Resources Canada, covered by the Explosives Act . NOT the RCMP. Get your info from the source.
No licence required for flintlock, to confirm for yourself, check the RCMP website concerning the firearms act and antique firearms by googling fire arms act antique firearms rcmp. when you find it, print it and keep in your shooting bag to show the cops when ask, because many of them have vague knowledge of licenced gun laws, let alone about something that their own database does not consider a firearm. go to Cabelas, buy your flintlock. it states right in their website on the page that you look at for the flintlock you wish to purchase that no licence is required for these guns. pyrodex will not work in your flintlock, you will need BP. there are many members here who will lead you in the right direction, and many who will detract from your experiences. you decide who those are. welcome and make good smoke.
 
Infidel is right on that. No licience required for a flintlock long gun. Also don't need one to buy blackpowder.

Traditions are not bad. I have their Pennsylvania rifle and other than it being not historically accurate the only gripe I have is how high the stock is. There is no drop and it made it very awkward to shoulder until I took a bunch of wood off and reshaped it.

Overall they are well built and I have done really well with mine. Even took a nice mule deer with it a few years back
 
Legally you do not need a pal but in practical terms, you probably will need one if buying from a store, because of store policy. Also, on the basis that rules only become more stringent, the more likely you are to avoid more stringent qualifications, by getting a pal sooner than later.

Cheers mooncoon
 
No need for a PAL for a flintlock rifle,black powder or bullets. The stores that want a PAL for you to purchase a flintlock can told to go jump in a big lake. Have a few antiques and a couple of flintlocks and no one has every asked for a PAL. They were Cabela's, and lebarons in Ottawa, The other antiques were from different folks at gun shows. For the extra equipment ,A decent sized bag to put all the stuff in, plus your balls,patch,lube, priming powder, a couple different sized flasks,a flintlock multi tool that has a screwdriver slotted blade on it,to tighten flints into the lock,a small whisk brush to clean up the pan,and a pick to clean out the vent hole, plus cleaning supplies(use hot soapy water to clean your barrel,rinse with hot water and then oil lightly,wipe this oil out before you start shooting) and a coon skin cap. ;)
 
Read around about the Traditions guns and you'll find that they have mixed reviews. I'll leave it to you to make up your mind on them after reading the reviews. Similarly don't just avoid anything by Armi Sport but run away from it. I bought one as my first flinter and at best it's a nice show piece for over the fire place. The issue with them is the lock work which is a collection of short cuts and minimalism that results in poor reliability, poor gritty operation and in my case an easily broken mainspring.

My second flinter was a Lyman Great Plains Rifle which I HIGHLY recommend as a moderate cost mainstream option. These come in both .50 and .54 caliber. The lock is superb and the barrels good so you hit what you aim at when you find the right ball diameter and patch thickness. I'd suggest the .54 if hunting is the goal. And the .50 if you're just shooting for fun since it uses a little less powder and lead.

The one downside I found on my own GPR is that the frizzen is a little too snappy and tightly sprung. This resulted in mine tending to eat the edges of the flint so I'd only get about 8 to 10 shots before it required re-knapping. From the example of the next flinter I bought (a used custom job) I slightly altered the end that rests on the frizzen spring so it stays put at any position until right near the end of the ####'s fall and THEN it springs out of the way. My flints now last for more like 15 to 20 shots before the edge needs any attention.

I've found that all my muzzle loaders seem to like a ball which is .010 under the nominal bore size and then patch them so that the ramming force is a moderate but firm amount to seat the ball and patch. You can select your patches for thickness and weave to obtain this sort of fit. With a few of mine I found that a locally obtained common cleaning patch works superbly. It's made from what looks like a flannelette bed sheet sort of material. It seems like a light fit but the balls fly true and group well so I'm not arguing. The moral here is play with different patch material to see what works well.

Patch lube is important to keep the fouling soft. I'm using "Moose Milk" made from about 1 part Ballistol oil to 5 parts water. The regular clear Ballistol is black powder compatible and is miscible in water like a cutting oil. The water in this mix keeps the bore free running. I short start the ball with the little nubbin on the starter and then wet the ruff on the patch sticking up with 4 to 6 drops of the Moose Milk. Then ram the ball home. I can shoot continually and the ramming force needed to seat stays consistent at just a little more firmness being needed than with the first clean bore loading. If it starts becoming sticky at some portion of the ramming start using another couple of drops of MM until it frees up in another shot or two.

Others use just about everthing from pre-greased patches you buy to old pillow ticking that they cut off from a strip at each loading with a patch knife to a mix of Murphy's oil soap and peroxide to good ol' spit.

I left my little squirt bottle of MM in the car one time and instead of walking back I just rested the patch on my tongue so my spit soaked into it while I was putting in the powder. These "spit patches" actually worked just as well as the MM for the day. But the feel of the fabric on my tongue wasn't all that pleasant. And of course I had to use my dirty hands to get the patch there. I tried to hold them by the smallest amount possible but it's still there a little with all the powder fouling and lead from handling the stuff.

I'm not sure what is in the shooter's kit but you'll want some sort of flask for holding the powder and a measure of some sort for measuring and pouring into the barrel. Never load a rifle directly from the storage flask. If there's an ember of burning patch in there and it sets off the charge and that runs up and sets off the flask the resulting explosion will at the very least take off your hand. With a measure if the charge goes off you'll end up with a flash burn and a lost powder measure that shoots off into the bush but no major injury. For the same reason I always hold the barrel out at arm's length so my face is away from any such event. And it should go without saying that you'd point it away from anyone else around you as well while pouring in the powder.

If you're at a shooting table with your flask, measure and other stuff laid out I'd suggest an old bath towel. Lay out the stuff on half the towel and once loaded and pan charge but while still at half #### flip the other half of the towel over the stuff so that any sparks that fall on the bench don't touch off any powder around the spout of the flask.

If hunting or shooting on private land or Crown land you'll want to set up a shoulder bag so you load out of the bag. An older shoulder style medium size camera bag with the velcro separators would work well for this since you can arrange for pockets to hold the flask, paches and balls such that you can grab each of these easily. The velcro sides of the interior can also be used with flaps of velcro strip to hold slip tubes that hold your short starter and the measure so they aren't floating around in the bottom of the bag and hiding. And if you're using the Moose Milk or some other liquid patch lube concoction another little compartment to hold the plastic dropper bottle with that so it doesn't spill. With a little practice you can reload from this bag in under 40 seconds without feeling rushed.

As you progress you may want to shift the measure and short starter to slip pockets located on the actual shoulder strap. if you do this, and it does work very nicely, I'd include "safety cords" that tie the items to the shoulder strap so if they get hooked by something they don't fall out and get lost. a great option is a slip cord on the items that passes through a hole in the strap and has a flag of leather or something on the end that you can pull to shorten the line. And since that retainer line is free ended it won't hang up on any brush.

The powder flask doesn't need to be the traditional horn. One of the flat pear like brass flasks with the valve on one end will last for a LONG day of shooting. And the smaller tubular body flasks will easily be enough for a week or more of hunting where you might only take a couple or four shots if you're lucky. And these smaller flask options will fit into your bag so there isn't more stuff around your neck and hanging off your body.

For a day of shooting you'll also need to take along a small knapping "hammer" of some sort. This can be just about anything of brass or steel which you can use to tap the edge to chip away the flint and produce a new edge. You'll also want a couple or three extra flints.

If you're target shooting you'll want a flash hole pick wire tied to a short line on your trigger guard so you can put it into the flash hole during loading to both clear it of any fouling as well as keep it from filling with powder. You will also need an old rag to wipe off the lock and wipe out the pan after a couple of shots.

For priming the pan I now use 4f powder from a special priming flask. But for the first couple of years I just used a little bit of 3f. For the first while I would put some 3f into a shot glass then vibrate it with gentle tapping to make the finer powder settle to the bottom. Then I'd skim off the coarser particles and return them to the can. I used this "3.5f" to prime with. After a few outings I didn't bother any more and the 3f from the flask was fine for priming even if it was sometimes a little messy and wasteful with a little spillage when the tip would go "GLOOP!" on the pan and I had to dust off the excess. But you CAN make do with this way. If your flint and frizzen are working well there's no disadvantage to using 3f as priming powder.

As mentioned Pyrodex and 777 are too hard to ignite in a flint lock. You'll need to stick with proper black powder. 3f is fine for up to .50 cal. It's a trifle fine for a .54 which aught to have 2f. But if you don't want to buy a can of 4f you can run a .54 on 3f just fine and use it for priming as well. Even 2f will fire up in a pan. But the flint and frizzen need to be well tuned and the frizzen nice and hard so it throws a good shower of hot sparks. Overall you're likely better off with the 3f.

Some shops might be hesitant to sell you any black powder. But explain your situation and ask them what you can do or provide to ease their concerns. Or get in with one of the local black powder groups and shoot with them. It's great fun and once you're in the group the others can either talk to the shop on your behalf or they can buy the powder for you. Best of all you'll meet a great bunch of folks and learn many a hint from them on helping you run your flinter. I know that much of what I've typed here came from them, not me. In fact MOST of it came from them and the rest came from reading posts like this. So don't be a loner. It's more fun to share the day with a group of like minded folks.
 
zackstab is confused. No PAL required for flinters, but is for percussion locks. Long guns only. Modern BP handguns are treated like any other handgun.
You can buy and import a flinter from the States(BP firearms are not considered to be firearms Stateside) with no fuss too. Just GST/HST. Prices are about half there. At least they are between here and the States. The Lyman Great Plains, BCRider speaks of runs $750ish here. $350ish USD(That matters these days. Dollar closed at under 80 cents yesterday) Stateside.
Buy a copy of Lyman's BP Handbook and Reloading Guide. Runs about $30 at Amazon or your local gun shop and is worth every cent. Starting with BP is measured in grains by volume not weight.
 
I bought a great plains hunter flintlock as my first before my license: h ttp://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/muzzle-loaders/great-plains-hunter.php (holy crap price has doubled!!)

...good rifle but I upgraded the trigger and lock added the lyman peep and globe sights. Get one of those brass powder measures, it's a near must.

I eventually made a powder horn.

You may eventually want to order raw flint and knap it yourself...it'S much cheaper and you have more flexibility..i order it here : ht tp://www.neolithics.com/

You will need to knap the worn flint anyways, there is a right way and a wrong way...

Try to find black powder first NOT substitute, the real stuff like goex...I have tried triple 7, pyrodex and others...none of them are worth beans in a flintlock, It did not ignite, I had to push some real stuff in the flash hole to get it to fire. Yo will need fff or 4f for the pan anyways. Find it first then buy the rifle...not sure about the laws for making it yourself but to make shootable BP, it's a skill on its own. I have seen varget more available than actual real BP.

If you get the hunter you can use more precise projectiles and with different weights I use from 250 to 400 grains, but if you do get this, I would not use borebutter as lube, It makes a mess, I use a homemade lube called felix lube (recipe is out there use google).

A lot more to learn...but of course no license is required and its really not that hard if you are a skilled guy.
 
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bullet moulds...a muzzleloader 3 piece cleaning rod. You need that last item because the wooden one that comes with the rifle is weak, the tip broke off in the barrel once with the cleaning patch and it was hell to remove...
 
A rifle musket was a military long arm that had the same length as the smoothbore it replaced, with of course rifling. No muzzle loader is beginner friendly, from the least expensive on up they will do great damage to the shooter and those nearby from improper loading. They need good cleaning after 1 shot or 50 else you be left with a rusted firearm in no time. Yet it is a great pastime if you have at least the basic knowledge of proper use. I know I sound repetitive as I suggest this everytime to someone who wants to start shooting them. Get yourself a good book and read it carefully. There are many out there. Anything written by Sam Fadala is a good choice. Best bet is to take the PAL course so you can get a caplock so you can decide what you want. Good luck, be careful and enjoy.
 
fraserdw said:
You are correct. If you are just hunting get the PA Pellet. If you intend to live the black powder lifestyle get a Kentucky or Hawken.
Click to expand...

The PA pellet rifle requires a PAL. He's looking at doing this without a PAL. For him it's not a pioneer life style choice but rather one that will allow him to start shooting either without or before getting his PAL.

Almar, good point on the cleaning rod and cleaning gear.

Black powder fouling draws moisture from the air and it mixes with the salts in the fouling produced when the powder burns. The result is that the guns rust if not cleaned within a few hours to a day after shooting. How long you can get away with depends on the humidity level in your area at the time.

I found that the best tool for cleaning my muzzle loaders is a non spinning shotgun cleaning rod with a nylon bristle brush of the proper caliber. The barrels remove from the stocks fairly easily and you fill the barrel with hot water that has a little liquid laundry detergent in it. The water does the work. The detergent is just to aid in cutting through any oil left by the patch lube. Run the brush down. When you get to the end give the rod handle a twist to angle the fibers so you can reverse the direction for the pull stroke. If you can't twist the bristles they'll lock like a chinese finger puzzle. That's why I'm suggesting a non spinning shot gun cleaning rod over the usual spinning rifle rod.

You'll also want a brass jag of the right caliber and some cleaning patches. Once it's been brushed and rinsed run dry patches down the bore until they come out clean and dry. Then run a patch wetted with Ballistol oil down the bore to coat the metal and protect it as well as cleaning out any last remnants of the fouling. Run Ballistol patches until they come out clean as required.

I tend to leave the Ballistol oil in place and the next time I'm going out shooting I run a single dry patch through the bore the evening before or just before leaving. That way I've got more oil protecting the bore but I clean it away so it can't affect the powder before heading out.

A note too on which oils to use. Black powder fouling has a nasty habit of forming a tough sticky gum like mixture when it meets a lot of regular petroleum based gun oils. Ballistol is one of the very few that is fully compatible with BP fouling left from shooting. So you'll need to find some of this or some other oil that is known to be compatible with BP. Do not take the gun store clerks advice on this. It can really mess up your bore and set you up for a nasty cleaning session.

Similarly the solvent based cleaning products that work so well for smokeless work poorly or not at all on BP fouling. Water is the solvent of choice. It's the ONLY solvent you need. And the Ballistol is also OK for cleaning away BP fouling. Not as good or fast as water but not bad.

Some barrels have a sub sized powder chamber at the breech end which is a little smaller than the regular bore. If you have one of those you'll need a .357 or .40 size brush to clean that portion or you'll need to make up something to get into this smaller section. And pipe cleaners for cleaning out the flash hole. And if it's got a flash hole bushing you'll want to remove that about ever 80 to 100 shots and clean the threads and coat them with a good grease or the copper based anti seize to keep the threads from binding and corroding together.
 
I can't thank you all enough for the tons of information and experience you all just shared with me. It's nice to know its as easy as going out and buying one, the true barrier to entry seems to lie in proper education of use and care so as not to damage the gun or yourself. Many of you have pointed me in the right direction for that. Lots of reading to do. Will look in to some of the book recommendations.


There were a few suggestion of going for percussion caps as they're more beginner friendly, unfortunately it has to be a flintlock for me. The more interactive an experience for me the better and that smoke coming out of the side is pretty ###y.

I'm intending to use this for target shooting, I can't see myself hunting in the forseeable future, it's still just a passing curiosity that may or may not grow.

I'm living in Vancouver BC and the Cabelas store in Nanaimo seems to be my best bet for supplies and the gun itself. Will look around for some black powder clubs nearby that I could learn from.

Further Questions

How important are safety glasses? I've seen a few videos of people firing without them.
How often does a flint last before it needs to be knapped again and how much use will I get out of one flint before needing a new one?
How often should things be cleaned? After a couple of shots or after a day of shooting?

Thank you all again for the many walls of text
 
You don't need to go to Cabelas. The stores in the Vancouver area typically have one or two around. In particular I know that International out in Surrey likes to keep a couple in stock.

You can't go caplock anyway. Caplock rifles are not exempted like flintlock and matchlock rifles. So you'd need a PAL.

A few of the club's here in the Fraser Valley have active black powder groups. Check out Ridgedale Rod and Gun. http://www.ridgedale.net/ Also we have an active BP group at the Chilliwack Fish and Game club http://www.chilliwackfishandgame.com/ .

Both these clubs have black powder trails where you walk along in the bush and shoot at a variety of targets at different distances. It's huge fun and avoids the sameness of a classic rifle range. Check out the club calenders for dates of the regular monthly fun shoots. Although with the woods being so dry both of the clubs have had to cancel any black powder shooting until there's some significant amount of rain to reduce the fire risk. So it may be a while before the groups are back to shooting.
 
- I don't wear safety glasses. But you could make mistakes especially as a newbie and boom...Chances are unlikely but...actually glasses might help with the flinching..they don't call it a "flinch"lock for nothing.
-depends on how you adjust the flint...the spring strength too...I usually wear out a flint after 10 shots, it still sparks but not enough to my taste, needs sharpening. If you buy a dozen you should be fine to start.
-cleaning with BP is constant, I run a patch every 2 shots, clean the pan, flint and frizzen every shot, push a pipe cleaner through the flash hole.

After the shooting I then a do thorough cleaning after by removing barrel , flash plug and putting it in the bathtub run hot water through it. then run patches till they come out clean, I then run a patch with bore butter and rub bore butter all over the rifle (except stock) to shine then wipe. I clean the lock and apply bore butter except on frizzen and flint.

Then run a patch again 2 days later to see if it sweat out more carbon. I do a thorough cleaning (complete disassembly) every year.

At the range, you might want to time yourself, don't load a round if think the official might cease fire soon...15 people waited for me a good 5 minutes for me to shoot that last loaded round to make the rifle safe, the darn thing kept flashing but no boom. If this happens push some of that pan powder through the flash hole with a pick to make a fuse effect, this always works for me.
 
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With a flintlock there's too much stuff flying around to NOT wear safety glasses.

Also if you end up shooting at any clubs or any organized events glasses and ear protection is mandatory.

You know.... you're stepping into a rather expensive hobby by any measure. You won't be happy with just one flintlock. And shooting supplies aren't cheap either. The cost of powder, balls and flints will add up sooner than you realize. You really should plan on getting your PAL unless you figure that this is just a one rifle passing fancy sort of thing.

You asked about how long flints last. I found that it very much depends on the gun. I hinted in my posts above about how the Lyman ate them like popcorn until I modified the cam on the frizzen. While it helped I find that I still need to knap the edge to freshen up the spark after 15 to 18 shots. It was worse before. Generally the flints tolerate being chipped by firing and knapped by the shooter to the tune of around 35 to 40 shots on a "gentler" action. At that point they are too blunt, thick and short to use any longer.

But on a harsh action this number can easily be half that amount. Certainly my Lyman USED to be such a gun. It was a struggle to make one flint last for the course of a day shoot at Chilliwack's monthly where the full course is 25 shots. My new flinter and my fixed up Lyman will now do the whole course easily on one flint with just a light edge knapping at around the 18th to 20th position. So the flint left at the end of the day is good for a few more shots the next time out.

As mentioned the barrel at least MUST be cleaned after every outing. Or it'll rust into uselessness in a week to two weeks. Even leaving it for a few days can result in some amount of rusting of the bore depending on the weather and humidity.

Flintlocks throw a lot of fouling back into the action so I also wash and oil the action each time. It gets a swish and brush job in the soapy water, a very hot water rinse to warm it and then blown dry with some compressed air and oiled up with a spray can of Ballistol to get into all the bits and pieces. Then a wipe down to remove the excess and mostly dry off the flash pan.

Speaking of the pan fouling you'll want a rag with you to wipe off the frizzen, pan and flint after at least every second shot. They get fouled up pretty well by the flash.

So you'll certainly want to buy flints in larger quantities. It's not enough to just have a couple or three of them. And if you're mail ordering from somewhere like Track of the Wolf to keep the cost down it's worth buying at least 20 at a time to make the shipping costs spread out over more of an order cost.
 
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