Copper boils (doesn't matter what the particle size is) at 2595C. Lead boils at 1750C. Either way, I was under the impression that copper fouling was due to friction. It's going to take a lot of shots for copper to smooth out a steel or chrome surface.
Barrel Break In...?
- Thread starter One Lung Wonder
- Start date
When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. The machining can leave burrs or rough spots in the process. Factory barrels are more likely to have imperfections because they are do the process quicker to get more out the door.
Yes chrome barrels are more resistant and will take longer to be broken in.
Yes chrome barrels are more resistant and will take longer to be broken in.
More barrels are ruined by cleaning too much than are by not enough.
I've had some pretty rough looking bores shoot quite well, and when the bore looks bad you will not care about cleaning.
One Argentine Mauser in 30-06 sporterized was really bad, but she was a 1.5 MOA rifle. I never Chrony'd that rifle before I sold it, wish I had.
I've had some pretty rough looking bores shoot quite well, and when the bore looks bad you will not care about cleaning.
One Argentine Mauser in 30-06 sporterized was really bad, but she was a 1.5 MOA rifle. I never Chrony'd that rifle before I sold it, wish I had.
redshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
That's the theory, and it may very well be fact. The thing is I can spend a bunch of time at the range screwing around doing the Voodoo or after a few hundred rounds pop off the upper, plug the muzzle and pour in some CR-10 (or your favorite copper cleaner). After a couple of minutes (or recommended max for your solution) drain it, give it a scrub, and then repeat. Your bore will be copper free in half the time and in this case you can multi task doing other #### at home.
If anyone IS going to indulge in the one shot, two shots, three shots, four, how about stroking the barrel with a chicken foot between shots and blowing fire balls of rum while your at it...give me something to smile about after looking at my last group.
So you think machining marks when a barrel is made is "voodoo"? Is that how magents work too?
So the OP asked if barrel break in is necessary. One of us supplied facts about what happens to a barrel when its made and what happens during the use of it. The others said they dont believe in magic....
I know its like aurguing which is better, ford or chevy. But can someone post a realistic aurgument why you dont need to remove the marks left after machining?
So the OP asked if barrel break in is necessary. One of us supplied facts about what happens to a barrel when its made and what happens during the use of it. The others said they dont believe in magic....
I know its like aurguing which is better, ford or chevy. But can someone post a realistic aurgument why you dont need to remove the marks left after machining?
Here's some info for you, from one of the greatest barrel/rifle makers(and shooters) of all time. I've included the link which takes you to another longer discussion on the voodoo of break in.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html
The more in depth link is here: http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn.asp
Gale McMillan, of McMillan Stocks fame, was one of the finest barrel-makers and benchrest shooters of all time. Here he argues that elaborate barrel break-in procedures do more harm than good.
Comments collected from Gale's Gun Forum postings.
As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the prescribed [one shot, one clean] break-in method, a very large number would do more harm than good. The reason you hear of the gain in accuracy is because if you chamber a barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling. It takes from one to two hundred rounds to burn this burr out and the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories let them go longer than any competent smith would.
Another tidbit to consider--take a 300 Win Mag that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds. Use 10% of it up with your break-in procedure. For every 10 barrels the barrel-maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the break-in. No wonder barrel-makers like to see this. Now when you flame me on this please [explain] what you think is happening to the inside of your barrel during the break in that is helping you.
Consider this: every round shot in breaking-in a barrel is one round off the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical reason of what happens during break-in firing. In other words what, to the number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden, a friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who came up with the [one shot one clean] break-in method. He may think he has come upon something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that deteriorates [the bore] until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what physically takes place during break-in to modify the barrel then I may change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel don't change because of the break-in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion--forget it.
It all got started when a barrel maker that I know started putting break-in instructions in the box with each barrel he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help and his reply was if they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point; it definately will shorten the barrel life. I have been a barrel maker a fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset benchrest world records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at one time) along with High Power, Silhouette, Smallbore national and world records and my instructions were to clean as often as possible preferably every 10 rounds. I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from normal wear and tear. I am even reading about people recommending breaking-in pistols. As if it will help their shooting ability or the guns'
You and others cannot confirm with repeatable evidence that any kind of voodoo break in procedure is doing anything to improve accuracy. The process simply makes you feel better about your gear, it's a placebo.
TW25B
Prove what point? That some companies use crappy equipment to make their barrels? Then you would buy said low quality rifle(cough Remington) and proceed to polish the turd? if you are serious about precision and or long range shooting you likely have a custom barrel like a Lilja or McGowan. So if you paid top dollar for a match grade barrel should it not be ready to go and properly manufactured as in HAND LAPPED?
The so called improvement in accuracy is not and has not been proven, period. I have yet to break in any barrel as well as many thousands of other folks and there has been no degredation in the performance of the rifles. There was a post by McMillan I believe who listed many first place wins with his barrels and none of them were subject to the voodoo of barrel break in. On a side note, Savage won a long range competition a few years ago with OFF THE SHELF guns competing against custom shop Remingtons and the like. So what does that tell you?
TW25B
ETA: Did you miss the part where Mr, McMillan clearly stated that barrel break in was started by a custom barrel maker and is pure horse sh*t??
The questions wasn't "Do i break in my high dollar customer barrel?"
Did you miss the part where Mr.McMillan clearly stated worn out reamers cause burrs which could take 100s of rounds to clear out?
Yes some rifles come better out of the box than others.
Your OFF THE SHELF statement does matter because what where the groups? Did one gun shoot 2 MOA vs 1.5 MOA at what yards? They both could have been bad.
Not to knock on McMillan but he condradicts himself in paragraph 1 vs 4. At one point he says that bad reamers leave marks to which is takes 100+ rds to clear out and make the rifle settle down and shoot it's best. Then later he says if someone can explain to him what physically changes in the barrel he might change his mind. What changes in the barrel? The burrs caused by bad reaming!
Did you miss the part where Mr.McMillan clearly stated worn out reamers cause burrs which could take 100s of rounds to clear out?
Yes some rifles come better out of the box than others.
Your OFF THE SHELF statement does matter because what where the groups? Did one gun shoot 2 MOA vs 1.5 MOA at what yards? They both could have been bad.
Not to knock on McMillan but he condradicts himself in paragraph 1 vs 4. At one point he says that bad reamers leave marks to which is takes 100+ rds to clear out and make the rifle settle down and shoot it's best. Then later he says if someone can explain to him what physically changes in the barrel he might change his mind. What changes in the barrel? The burrs caused by bad reaming!
And Shillen, Lilja and Kieger all say to break in your barrels...
We can go back and forth all day. But again I'm not taking custom barrels...almost all of which get hand lapped, again which does the same thing as breaking the barrel, just a better version from the maker.
If you think your barrel needs this ridiculous treatment and you want to waste your time doing it then be my guest. When you or anyone else can take two identical rifles and prove there is a difference from one with a break in done and one without then perhaps you may have some merit. Until then, many in the know say it's pure BS, and the other companies that say you need to do it are simply increasing sales by having you prematurely wear out your barrel with the voodoo practice.
TW25B
redshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
The point of the Voodoo is to reduce Copper fouling while the barrel is "breaking in". The burrs will go poof in a few hundred rounds regardless of what kind of antics you perform at the firing line or your shrine to Mars.
I've managed to copper foul a hand lapped barrel, nothing that a little soaking of CR-10 didn't cure in short order. You can spend half your range time screwing with a cleaning rod, brush, patches and solvent, or do it at home later watching your favorite show on the tube.
In the end it's about Copper fouling and there are solvents for that. If you can remove the barrel, or in this case upper, it's not too bad to sort out so why not just do it at home?
I've managed to copper foul a hand lapped barrel, nothing that a little soaking of CR-10 didn't cure in short order. You can spend half your range time screwing with a cleaning rod, brush, patches and solvent, or do it at home later watching your favorite show on the tube.
In the end it's about Copper fouling and there are solvents for that. If you can remove the barrel, or in this case upper, it's not too bad to sort out so why not just do it at home?
Here is what I find entertaining. People will go through the effort of barrel break in with a low to intermediate quality production rifle(and barrel). They will bolt some low dollar POS scope to it(like Bushnell, Vortex, Simmons, Tasco or NcStar somewhere in the $100-$400 range) in low dollar mounts, then proceed to feed it the cheapest surplus garbage ammo they can find. After all this they complain about the gear being junk and/or still champion how barrel break in is somehow relevant to the operation when there are so many other more important areas to focus on like the ones noted above...
TW25B
TW25B
