New Elk Hunter: Flatter Trajectory: Does it matter & What Caliber?

Vengeance78

Vengeance78

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Hi all,

New to the hunting game, but was fortunate to get an anterless elk tag this season in Alberta (up by Grand Prairie - WMU - 360).

EDIT: *Please pay attention to below bolded sentence and address any comments by referring specifically to one of the questions (#1-3) below and one can also assume that the shot won't necessarily be a perfect broadside and we can ignore questions about skill to shoot at long range as I feel I've addressed that concern in regards to myself. - Merci!


I have some questions (below) and not to be rude and dismiss anyone's experience, wisdom or knowledge, but I'd prefer to have input from just those that have actually hunted and taken elk at ranges 400+ yds. Thanks for your understanding! :)

My friend who lived up there said we will likely be shooting 300 - 400 yds and maybe 400+. He's shooting a .270 WSM (130 or 150 accubond spitzer) and the other two guys are using the 'aught-6'. Another friend said he'd shoot his 7mm WM, but he's not coming with, so that's irrelevant, but he likes the flatter trajectory at range.

Now, from all the reading and research I've done there seems to be many a varied opinion on 'best' (loaded term, I know) caliber for elk hunting.

Some say .270 is not enough gun, others say the .308 and .30-06 don't shoot flat enough at range (rainbow trajectory) and others seem to opine that .300 magnums and above are the only way to go for both terminal ballistics and flatter trajectory at distance, with the downside being there is much greater recoil, etc.

Personally, I was leaning towards a plain old .270(maybe .270 WSM but is it really worth the extra bang?) and was looking at a number of different factory loads (premium ammo) on JBM's ballistic calculator and the manufacturers' websites, but they both seem to have different ft-lbs energy numbers out to 500 yds.

And before anyone brings up the question as to whether I have the ability or not to shoot at distance, I don't think I do at this moment. However, once deciding on a caliber (and ammo and gun and optic) I will be hitting the range (hunting positions not bench rest) until I can shoot very accurately out that far. Maybe, I won't get satisfactory results this season and if not, no problem as I'll have to look for a shot closer in where I am accurate and forgo any shots I don't have the ability to make. Common sense here.

Anyway, putting aside the above point, here are my questions:

1. Firstly, anyone have a good ballistic calculator online they would recommend (free is always nice) for comparing ammo and that seems to be an accurate portrayal of the ammo's characteristics?

2. A)I think it makes sense to use just the right amount of gun with ammo that is proven to get the job done! So I'm trying to narrow down the choices from experienced elk hunters. Out of the following calibers, which would you use for longer (400-500yds) shots on elk: .270, .270 WSM, .308, .30-06, .300 WM, .300 wthby

B) Which ammo (e.g. Nosler AccuBond .270 140gr Bonded Spitzer Boat Tail, etc.) are good for hunting elk at distances from 400 - 500 yds. Feel free to just say which caliber you use and the corresponding ammo?

3. Flatter trajectory. Does it matter? Seems like the elevation turret on a scope takes care of that issue (my friends have laser range finders), so who really cares about the bullet's trajectory? The only reason I can see to care about the trajectory is that maybe (I'm guessing here) with a larger bullet drop range the angle the bullet enters the animal will be too steep and instead of going through the lungs it could just go from the entry point on, say, the side and go sharply downwards missing any vitals? I think that sounds unrealistic really, but that's all I can really think of why so many seem to laud a flatter trajectory. From what I can tell, windage seems more of a concern...

Everyone's input is welcome, but please let's stick to the questions at hand and not stray to far a field.
 
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I personally don't think too many Elk survived long enough to Whinge about a 180gr Premium projectile in the vitals?

Id also rekon you would be more accurate with a 30-06 than a 300win mag...


30-06 gets my vote here actually.

WL
 
Flatter shooting guns make up for errors in range estimation to a point. Downside is a light fast bullet or heavy recoil
Personally I like to bring enough gun and bullet to reach the vitals at the worst angle not plan on having a perfect broadside shot at a still animal at 100 yards
Elk are not whitetail deer
 
The .30-06 is almost never a bad choice. I assume you haven't shot a whole lot and will be shooting factory loaded ammo for practice, in that case the easiest to master would probably be .270, .308 and .30-06 both due to recoil and cost of ammunition. From what you have listed I would choose the .30-06 and pick the most accurate premium bonded bullet between 165 and 180 grains. Although I don't know how recoil sensitive you are or aren't. The .308 is just a little slower and a little less recoil.
It seems you like the .270 and I find little to fault with it for any North American deer species. I wouldn't be uncomfortable with a .270 and a 140 grain accubond for elk if they shot accurately enough in my rifle.
Flat trajectory was more important when range finders weren't common or even available, during this time the rulers of the roost were the .270 and .300 H&H for a long time before other magnums became mainstream and factory options. Of course most for most shooters and hunters long range was considered anything much past 300 yards and they invested a great deal of effort into honing their skills of range estimation and reading the winding and practiced.
If you aren't recoil sensitive and have the pockets to afford the ammunition to become proficient beyond 400 yards the .300 magnums are undeniably well suited to the task. I'd stick with an accurate 180 grain bullet and let some daylight into an elks ribs.
 
Any of the cartridges that you have mentioned, will work fine for antlerless elk. I have killed elk to over 400 yards, but it usually isn't necessary, and quite frankly, most people don't have the shooting skills to consistently hit the vital zone at 400 yards, so when they shoot at that distance, they often wound and lose more elk than they take home. As to the best ammunition, pick a load that your rifle shoots accurately, and make sure that the bullet that you are shooting will have the suggested velocity to expand properly at the distances you intend to shoot. If the trajectory of the bullet is so arced that it won't penetrate both lungs, it won't have enough velocity to expand properly. JBM does have free online ballistics calculators, but they are only really useful for estimating an approximate trajectory to make sure that you hit your targets at 400 and 500 yards, so that you can determine the actual trajectory of the load in your rifle. Even if you have a chronograph, so that you can determine the actual velocity of the load in your rifle, the actual trajectory may vary from the calculated trajectory by too much to provide consistent clean kills at 500 yards. In other words, you need to actually shoot the load in your rifle at 400 and 500 yards, rather than just sight in at 100 or 200 yards, and trust the calculations at 400 or 500 yards.
 
or justr LEARN how to stalk properly- and USE A HORSE- you can get far closer with a horse as the elk don't seem to smell it- i'm from the elmer keith school, backed up by val giest, and they both say the ideal elk rifle is the 338 win mag /250 grain spire points, and ranges of 300 yards or less-elk will never "present" with a broadside on shot, but usually a half or quartering shot- that's the reason for the "whomp and stomp" you may hit bone and be assured of the animal going down instead of wounded- I've seen whole herds of elk "disappear" in a couple of minutes and not at a gallop either- this was in b.c in the cranbrook/fernie region in the off season- no reason for them to spook - now I assume that you want to hunt the rocky mountain corridor- sundre or so to the border and east as far as brooks , or maybe all of b.c- well those animals are skittish at the best of times and you'll see far more than you actually get a shot- so maybe take those back east advisors with a grain of salt
 
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Perfect elk caliber is a myth. A great deal of personal preference goes into it. There are probably dozens of choices for calibers, from say 270 thru 338. A lot is going to depend on terrain, is the area open or thick. Another thing to think of is shot placement, what is your tolerance, a well placed premium bullet from a lesser caliber is much better than a poorly placed magnum bullet due to flinch. Thirdly, in many Elk areas, when hunting them you are also in Grizzly country, so would you rather have a 130 gr 270 or a 225 gr 338 in a close range encounter.
 
Norton: Fair enough, but I've no idea as I've never been there... And being that he grew up there and hunts up there every year I've got to assume he knows what he's talking about... I'm assuming from your comment that you've hunted up there before? Feel free to fill in my gaps of knowledge on this WMU if you'd be so kind. Like 'nowarningshot' asked, is the terrain open? Wooded? Etc... All I know is that my friend said he knows where to go to find elk, so perhaps that area is open and long shots are likely? - Thanks!
 
Hi t-star,

Great advice, but unfortunately I don't believe we will have access to horses and regardless, I don't know how to ride one, but quite interesting that elk seem to not 'smell' them! I wasn't aware of the fact that elk seem to not present broadsides under 300, so I see your point on the .338. Useful advice. Thanks! I've never shot one so I'd certainly like to see the recoil first as it sounds like this caliber and load would pack a good punch?

I don't think (but don't really know...) I'm recoil shy as Jim870 asked, but he was quite correct in assuming that I haven't shot much and hence my questioning larger calibers this time out as I reckon shot placement is arguably more beneficial at the moment.

To stubblejumper, I can't speak for any other hunter in terms of their ability to shoot accurately at 400 yds (give or take), but I know that at this moment that I can't. Like I mentioned in my original post, this is not really the topic here for concerning myself I'll either get my skill up (and I have taken into account that wind estimation is a necessary skill as is practice - thanks Jim) or if not, stick within boundaries where I can make a clean, killing shot.

As for the correct bullet that would expand properly at that range and have the needed trajectory for a double lungshot, as I originally asked, if you have the experience with a particular ammo that works well I could certainly benefit from your knowledge.

In fact, I do appreciate everyone's two-cents but per the parameters of this thread, I feel like some are not quite getting that I'm also looking for actionable intel and not only opinions, although of course those are appreciated.

As to practice and accuracy (so let's put to bed any further comments regarding this and keep the thread on topic, please), I've no problem dropping some $$$ on ammo and going out shooting until I'm confident, capable and know my gun, ammo, myself and our combined limitations.

So moving on and pertaining to recoil sensitivity, if anyone is in Calgary and has any of the above mentioned rifles and wouldn't mind going to a range with me (Calgary Shooting Centre on McLeod?), so that I could try their gun, I'll happily pick up the ammo!

t-star said:
or justr LEARN how to stalk properly- and USE A HORSE- you can get far closer with a horse as the elk don't seem to smell it- i'm from the elmer keith school, backed up by val giest, and they both say the ideal elk rifle is the 338 win mag /250 grain spire points, and ranges of 300 yards or less-elk will never "present" with a broadside on shot, but usually a half or quartering shot- that's the reason for the "whomp and stomp" you may hit bone and be assured of the animal going down instead of wounded- I've seen whole herds of elk "disappear" in a couple of minutes and not at a gallop either- this was in b.c in the cranbrook/fernie region in the off season- no reason for them to spook - now I assume that you want to hunt the rocky mountain corridor- sundre or so to the border and east as far as brooks , or maybe all of b.c- well those animals are skittish at the best of times and you'll see far more than you actually get a shot- so maybe take those back east advisors with a grain of salt
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For those mentioning 30-06, that was indeed my original choice before I started to read and research more! Maybe with trying to assimilate too much information I'm getting paralysis by analysis? However, as stubblejumper rightly mentioned, the trajectory is important, so what caliber (and particular ammo) is able to make the shot out to 500yds competently. I'm assuming the .338 250gr that was mentioned by t-star is capable of this?

Suka said:
If this is to be your, "one gun" my vote is 30-06 of those you mentioned as well.
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Makes perfect sense brybenn but thankfully my friends have range finders, so at least this year I won't have to estimate range, although I think that's a skill to learn and become proficient at. I golf however, so I think I'm fairly comfortable with range estimation out to ~500 yds; at least on the course - maybe more difficult in the woods/open land.

In regards to vitals, worst angle, etc., let's consider those a given.

To everyone reading and thinking of posting some comments and information, please look back at the original post and frame a response in terms of the listed questions (1-3), which would be super helpful and keep things on track! Thanks! :)

brybenn said:
Flatter shooting guns make up for errors in range estimation to a point. Downside is a light fast bullet or heavy recoil
Personally I like to bring enough gun and bullet to reach the vitals at the worst angle not plan on having a perfect broadside shot at a still animal at 100 yards
Elk are not whitetail deer
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I have shot several truckloads of game up to and beyond elk size from point blank to well in excess of 400 mtrs. So here is my standard advice..........I have finally settled on a 300 Wby but have used 7mm RM a couple 300 WMs a 300 RUM and a 340 Wby. The 340 stands head and shoulders above any other cartridge but is relatively difficult to master. The 300s have become my pets, and the reason why is that they are not difficult to master and they land on target with significantly more energy and penetration than the 270/308/30-06 class of cartridges. They make hitting an animal at 400+ mtrs easier as they have a flatter trajectory and a shorter time of flight. I use and like the 200 gn AB in mine but my kid uses 165 ABs in his 300 RUM and has had 100% success with that bullet. Yes the smaller cases recoil less and are easier to shoot, but experience has taught me that time of flight is a significant factor and the magnum 30s are amongst the best all time on this sized game at extended ranges. I have used several 300s extensively in Africa and can tell you they are a truly effective cartridge group on elk sized game and larger. I have used my 300s in NA for nearly every animal NA has to offer and I can say unequivocally you cannot go wrong with a 300 Mag from the Win up.
 
500 is "optimistic" for any standard rifle cartridge, including the 338 winmag- both elmer keith's and val giest's recommendations are on line- one simply has to google "elk hunting" -and you misread my comment- elk very rarely" present" broadside shots PERIOD, and ranges are at about 250 and up- right about 325- 350 is the majority- take a look at your ballistic tables to see how much a bullet drops off between 300-400 yards with a 200-250 zero= it's a good yard or more in elevation- the longer you go , the more drop ( duh) and look to see WHAT'S in between you and the target- trees make a HUGE difference and a meadow is almost no problem at all-as far as recoil a 338 will DOUBLE your 06 in ft pounds but you're also throwing a heavier slug by70 grains or so at the same velocity ie 17 ft pounds/180 ( semi gentle nudge vs a REAL GOOD PUSH) 34 /250 BOTH AT 2600 FPS but a little PRACTICE takes care of that- I use a browning bar in 338 - with a kdf muzzelbrake- if you must take a shot at those ranges, use your pack as a rest and get real good and hunkered down before you take the shot- and watch the animal when he's down to see the eyes glaze over- ie watch the shot and have your observer do the same- 2 sets of eyes are always better than 1
I also carry a magful ( 3 shots) of bear medicine- jic- 275 s- this is a brown bear load, so it should work on a griz if needed
c
 
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Excellent info c-fbmi and thanks for staying on topic! :)

Initially, I was looking at the .30-06 and then moved my choice of caliber to the .300 wthby and lastly to the .270. Two reasons for deciding against the wthby were ammo expense and recoil.

However, being that I've never shot it I really can't say whether the recoil would be manageable for me or not, but from info online it seemed that it packs a kick like a mule? However, at 5'11", 190 lbs and in relatively good shape, I can't really see it being an untenable choice.

Again, thanks for the info!

c-fbmi said:
I have shot several truckloads of game up to and beyond elk size from point blank to well in excess of 400 mtrs. So here is my standard advice..........I have finally settled on a 300 Wby but have used 7mm RM a couple 300 WMs a 300 RUM and a 340 Wby. The 340 stands head and shoulders above any other cartridge but is relatively difficult to master. The 300s have become my pets, and the reason why is that they are not difficult to master and they land on target with significantly more energy and penetration than the 270/308/30-06 class of cartridges. They make hitting an animal at 400+ mtrs easier as they have a flatter trajectory and a shorter time of flight. I use and like the 200 gn AB in mine but my kid uses 165 ABs in his 300 RUM and has had 100% success with that bullet. Yes the smaller cases recoil less and are easier to shoot, but experience has taught me that time of flight is a significant factor and the magnum 30s are amongst the best all time on this sized game at extended ranges. I have used several 300s extensively in Africa and can tell you they are a truly effective cartridge group on elk sized game and larger. I have used my 300s in NA for nearly every animal NA has to offer and I can say unequivocally you cannot go wrong with a 300 Mag from the Win up.
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