The Webley .455 - Noob Questions

V

Ve3xti

Regular
Rating - 100%
2   0   0
Location
Kenora
Hello all,

I have recently received my RPAL and will be inheriting my Great, great (possibly another great) Uncles S&W 455. As far as I know it hasn't been converted/shaved to .45, but I haven't gotten to see it as I live a ways away from where I grew up. My Grandma received it from his wife after she passed and I wasn't even aware of the firearm until after I started my RPAL application. Therefore, unless my lots of great's uncle shaved it, it is still in Webley .455.

I see only Fiocchi makes Webley .455 on a limited run and while I can get it, it's not only expensive, it take awhile to get from my understanding.

I've researched reloading quite a bit, but have no experience with it or with firearms in general actually. Figured out Lee and RCBS still have the dies and that Hornady used to make brass, but doesn't seem like they still do.

I'm sure there's a fair amount of guys/gals on here that reload the Webley's. Where do I find the brass, bullets, etc? Is Fiocchi the only way to get brass these days and if so what happens when they stop producing their limited run? Is this something I should even thing about taking on as a complete noob?

Any extra info that could be given on both reloading the Webley .455 and the S&W 455 in general would be excellent.

Thanks in advanced,
Justin
 
It is a nice gun to shoot. The Fiochi is rather hot. Brass can be reloaded.

Anyone with a single gun to reload for can either buy the complete kit, or just buy the dies, a box of bullets, brass and a can of suitable powder (TiteGroup or 231) and give it to a buddy to load for you.

I used to load 38-55 for a guy. He supplied the brass, bullet, powder and dies.

know anyone who loads?
 
A guy I used to know (deceased) made a tool out of some vice-grips that pinched the rim of 45acp brass and made it work in 455. Something to check into.
 
I use Unique powder in the old war horse, and have military surplus, Colt, Dominion, and Starline brass. Starline was making batches of brass turning the rim on 45 Colt thinner from the front and trimming to length. The trimmed 45 stuff isn't perfect because the rim isn't as wide as 455. One of these days I will get bored and make a swage to hammer the 45 rim thin and wide.
 
Ganderite said:
It is a nice gun to shoot. The Fiochi is rather hot. Brass can be reloaded.
*Snip*
know anyone who loads?
Click to expand...

That's what I've been hearing online. I'm really looking forward to it! The guy who I took my one-stop course does reload. I hadn't thought of going that route. Thanks for that idea.

Ian Robertson said:
A guy I used to know (deceased) made a tool out of some vice-grips that pinched the rim of 45acp brass and made it work in 455. Something to check into.
Click to expand...
oneadam12 said:
I use Unique powder in the old war horse, and have military surplus, Colt, Dominion, and Starline brass. Starline was making batches of brass turning the rim on 45 Colt thinner from the front and trimming to length. The trimmed 45 stuff isn't perfect because the rim isn't as wide as 455. One of these days I will get bored and make a swage to hammer the 45 rim thin and wide.
Click to expand...

I doubt I want to get into making the brass for it. Seems to hardcore to start out with! :)
Is military surplus found at gunshows and the like?

It's looking like a box of Fiocchi to start and then reload from there, but I'm assuming when that dries up 50 cases isn't a good stash for the future.

I appreciate the comments guys :cheers:
 
Ve3xti said:
It's looking like a box of Fiocchi to start and then reload from there, but I'm assuming when that dries up 50 cases isn't a good stash for the future.

I appreciate the comments guys :cheers:
Click to expand...

that is how i started. Fiocchi, keep brass, reload. This gun is the reason I am into reloading. buy a couple boxes of ammo, 100 rounds of brass will be more than enough. you may not want to shoot it every trip to the range anyway. If it is a nice old war horse, take care of it, take it out to play once and a while and get some others to fill in your range time. post some pics when you get it. have fun..
 
Ve3xti said:
I doubt I want to get into making the brass for it. Seems to hardcore to start out with! :)
Is military surplus found at gunshows and the like?
Click to expand...

I found most of mine at gunshows, surplus and otherwise. Just be aware it goes under a bunch of different names including 455 Eley and 455 Colt - and two different brass lengths. And keep your eye out for a batch of 200-250 grain lead hollow base projectiles. I use one that (I think) somebody intended for a 45-70.
 
oneadam12 said:
I found most of mine at gunshows, surplus and otherwise. Just be aware it goes under a bunch of different names including 455 Eley and 455 Colt - and two different brass lengths. And keep your eye out for a batch of 200-250 grain lead hollow base projectiles. I use one that (I think) somebody intended for a 45-70.
Click to expand...

I cast the 255 grain hollow base bullet for the 455 Webley, but Jethunter was the guy to go to buy 455 bullets on CGN. I think he is still selling the Webley bullets, isn't he?
 
Thanks for all the replys guys!

Here's what's been happening on my end:
The S&W 455 is now registered to me and was dropped in the mail today. Should have it late next week and hope to post pictures then. I just ordered a couple of boxes from the Calgary Shooting Center so I should be good to go for a bit before having to think about reloading. I also found jethunter's thread on the bullets he offers, thanks for bringing him to my attention.

I wasn't expecting to get to shoot it this year as our range is outdoor only and the membership isn't prorated, so not much point joining this year. However they do accept guests with a member and with the new ATT rules there's a good chance it may come together!

I'm very much looking forward to it and, again, really appreciate the responses.
 
What you have there is what looks to be a particularly good example of a Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector aka a "Triple Lock". Although I do wonder about the tape around the grips.

Depending on the serial number, this might help:

There were three basic versions of 455 revolvers produced by S&W during production for the Brits. Each of the three versions included triple locks.

The 3 Versions of Hand Ejectors chambered in .455 Mk II for the British are:

1. “.44 HE 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’ with .455 Mk II chambering: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown, most or all likely .44 Spl, 666 for the British #1104 thru 10417 (obviously not inclusive of all serial #s), the extra 146 in serial range #9858-10007 for the commercial market; 123 in England and 23 in the US [N&J pgs. 204-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 15375. Shipped 1914-16.

* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it’s actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&WN&J pgs. 203, 204 & 205].

NOTE: Of the 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially, 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.

2. “.455 Mk II HE 1st Model”, TL in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15; thus creating a possible ~ 68 duplicate serial #s of the 812 “.44 HE 1st Model TLs, also in .455 chambering in 1. above.

3. “.455 Mk II HE 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock, but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from the 44 and 455 HE 1st Model TLs) continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17. Feb 1916 724 manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203]. The Canadian military also bought 14,500 of these 2nd Models. And 1105 2nd Models released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&WN&J pg. 216].

“As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .455 HE 1st Model Triple Locks [.44 HE 1st Model”, TLs with .455 Mk II chamberings]. *These guns will be numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series [could be the 1st or 2nd Model .44 Spl serial numbers; H of S&W, pg. 203]. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially.” Lee Jarrett

*Although the last 691 TLs are likely numbered too high (12000 to 13000 and higher, sold in 1916 and 1917 - Many were sold to Shapleigh Hardware Co. and Simmons Hardware Co., St. Louis, Mo.) And not likely to possibly have a duplicate number in the .455 HE 1st Model TL Brit contract serial range #1 to #5461, we don’t know anything with certainty.

Yours is probably in that third lot that were purchased commercially, as Canadian subbies were usually expected to buy their own pistols.

Loading for the 455 is relatively easy, although the initial outlay can by a bit much. RCBS still makes the dies (I think), and they do make a mould that replicates the 263 gr. hollow base ball round. I have both, and I've gotten my money's worth out by now shooting my two family .455s.

Brass is the issue. I resolved it by buying a hackysack of 45 Schofield round, then turning the rims thinner on a lathe from the front. Bit of a pain in the ass, including borrowing access to a lathe. But once I was set up, it was pretty fast. A machine shop guy could obviously do the same thing, probably fairly reasonably.

One thing I didn't do is turn the cases way down to .455 length. Going on memory here, .455 cases at around 1.000" in length still drop into all the chambers on my triple lock and webley just fine. They look ridiculous standing next to the original Mk II round, but they shoot very well and get the bullet closer to the forcing cone on the cylinder. I have a picture around here somewhere.

Anyways, some .455 Webley pics, along with their historical accoutrements. Crappy cellphone pictures, but I just had my old steam powered Samsung Rugby with me at the time. When you look at the pictures of the maps, if you look carefully you'll see the linen threads in the paper. And that all the tactical information on trenchlines, positions, etc is not printing, but actually hand drawn on the printed maps. Imagine the precision to get all of that precisely right, map after map after map. I guess that's what draftsmen did in WWI...

20150910.jpg


20150911.jpg


111.jpg


211.jpg


710.jpg


810.jpg


910.jpg


1011.jpg


1110.jpg


1310.jpg


1410.jpg


1510.jpg
 
Rick,

Thank you for that very informative post! I'm sorry it took me so long to reply, but I've been swamped at work. I did print off your excellent post to read and never got around to thanking you.

I have removed the tape and there is no grip or frame damage. It would appear it was added to make the grip a bit thicker. It is the .455 Mk II HE 2nd Model and while I don't recall the serial number, I believe its relatively low in that serial range.
 
Sorry to bump an old thread, but I'm now waiting on the transfer for my own Mk II Hand Ejector. Are there any restrictions on bullet types like with Webleys, or is it fine to use jacketed ammo? And is it true it's the same reloading setup as .45 ACP?
 
I don't think you would see a problem with jacketed bullets, but given the velocities I'd just stick with lead. All I shoot out of my .455's are soft cast bullets from RCBS's hollowbase mould. Works very well with them.

No idea if you could load .455 Webley with .45 ACP dies. I just bought the proper dies as I didn't have anything like it to start with.
 
maxman1 said:
Sorry to bump an old thread, but I'm now waiting on the transfer for my own Mk II Hand Ejector. Are there any restrictions on bullet types like with Webleys, or is it fine to use jacketed ammo? And is it true it's the same reloading setup as .45 ACP?
Click to expand...

Shell holders are different. Dies will depend on the makers and their interpretation of sizing, expanding and crimping.

I have loaded "Colt" brass with LEE ACP dies, but didn't look at their ability to expand and crimp shorter cases since I'm planing on using .898 ones in my gun.
 
Last edited:
I've a 2nd Model not unlike your's. I used a Lee 45 LC mold and trimmed down Hornady 45 Schofield brass to get started shooting. Have since found 455 MII cases made by Hornady and the proper HB original profile bullets.
Someone will come along to confirm or deny, which might be helpful of course. But...were the original Webley revolvers not cursed with some 4:20 ish chamber, throat, bbl dimensions that require the usage of the cursed HB?
I think the S & W version shoots quite well with PL 45 LC bullets and can actually benefit from a little longer case ( you don't need a lathe...PM me...it's doable with basic shop equipment ) that can be obtained from custom made cases. I think the Schofield case has a bit broader case rim as the ejector system on the top break Schofield balked at thinner rims (45 LC ) as well. I found the proper bullets ( 455 Webley ) at a gun show.... 80$ / 100...borderline usury right there.
I merely suggesting that you might be well served to take a step back from the original version of the 455 Webley as it is intended to service the ' King's Webley ' first. The S & W is likely a better designed, stronger pistol that needn't be hobbled by adhering to ammuntion designed strictly for ' King's ' version.
Personally I think the ' Colonial ' pistol is better, and benefits from a little longer case, and needn't adhere to the 'HB only' train of thought. A PL 45 LC seems to ' Bump up' nicely as well.
But, merely my thoughts of course. Have fun, the S & W is a beautiful, well made pistol. I find mine to be quite pleasant to shoot and accurate to boot. I send my bullets downrange at 780 fps and am amazed that this is a ' Man stopper ' round...it's so pleasant to shoot...isn't it supposed to ' Roar & Buck ' in your your hand like the magnum's do?
Nope. It got it done with Panache, just not a 100 yd round like a Magnum would be.
Stay safe
Tokguy
 
I load 45ACP, 45 Schofield using LEE 455 webley die set, and have loaded 455 webley MKII cartridges with a LEE 45acp die set. The sizing and expanding dies are identical part numbers in both 455 webley and 45acp LEE die sets.

HB bullets are not an absolute requirement for the 455 webley cartridge although in some cases there is a advantage. As far as accuracy goes, soft lead flat based bullets shoot just as well or better than the hollow base.

The Hornady 455 MKII brass has been out of production for a few years already. Bertram does make brass (check with Rusty Wood for availability), if you can survive the sticker shock it is quite good stuff.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom