Long Range Shooting Myths
- Thread starter GunGuy34
- Start date
I'll be completely honest, I wasn't really impressed with the long distance performance of the 20" AX after watching that video. Either the short barrel, poor ammo, or the combination of both got the better of them. Conditions appeared about perfect for stretching out way further. Cool video though!
notsorichguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- The city that rhymes with fun
I completely agree.
But I would have to say, there is absolutly nothing wrong with that ammo. That performance was due to the short barrel on then AX.
OTOH, 1300 is a pretty fair poke and it is also further than I have access to shoot at!
But I would have to say, there is absolutly nothing wrong with that ammo. That performance was due to the short barrel on then AX.
OTOH, 1300 is a pretty fair poke and it is also further than I have access to shoot at!
Considering my 308 stays supersonic until JUST shy of 1000 meters and the fact that there have been multiple sniper kills at over 2000M, I was surprised to see that bullet go trans-sonic by 1370M. Sure, the 20 inch barrel isn't doing him any favors, but I expected a little more from it.
His comments on the goal being 1 MOA did make me feel better about my rifle and my abilities.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Given the short barrel, and the .308 cartridge, I think the rifle's performance was pretty good considering the range. I was surprised that given the quality of the equipment, and the difficulty associated with extended range shooting, that there was no bubble level attached to the scope to ensure the reticle was level for each shot; inadvertent canting would throw rounds wide, and at extended ranges, using the edge of the target as a level is less precise.
He had a SPHUR mount on the AX which has a bubble level incorporated into the mount.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Not sure if he answered or created more myths 
A few thoughts:
On the positive:
I really like the coach/trainer. He has a nice direct simple style and obviously has been there and done that. Give instructions in a clear manner so shooter doesn't have to do too much thinking. The author of the video may have a lot of shooting experience, but ELR seems new to him.
You really don't need a long barrel for ELR shooting. No matter what or how it is launched, it will all go subsonic eventually.... if you go far enough.
I love how they were so dramatically able to show the boost of a "can"... I WANT A CAN!!!!
Really like how the coach was taking come ups and taking notes AND the notes agreed with the scope setting... so important, otherwise, someone is getting lost. And how the notes showed a constant need to adjust for ambient vs ballistic program output. Reading a number off a LCD screen doesn't always lead to a center hit at distance.
Talking in the same units... doesn't matter if MOA or MRAD. Just stick to the same unit in gear and conversation. Not sure if the spotter used had a reticle? That makes life SOOOO much easier for field shooting. If I shoot in pairs, we just use the same reticle in our scopes. Picket fence, Mildot, X mas tree... all doesn't matter as long as both "SEE" the same thing. My 2 left is the same as your 2 left....
YES, many modern bullets will not go through transonic flight well. Many old school bullets WILL. When a bullet starts to wobble, the impact area becomes HUGE. Really fun to see it "hit the wall".
MOA for the typical tactical, bipod, factory ammo rig IS great performance. But it can be much better.
24X as a top end for mag IS all you really need for rocks and gongs IF the glass is good.
On the Negative:
You definitely do not need such nice Gucchi gear. If all you want is MOA field accuracy, I can't think of a single modern heavy barrel factory rifle that will not be able to provide with a bit of tuning and proper ammo.
There are no shortage of rifles at these elevated price ranges that can provide far better then MOA performance at 1000yds. If a shooter really wants that level of performance, they just need to do their homework and reload.
They go right to the 338LM as THE choice for LR shooting. Far from it (coach indicated other cals). Most will find a cartridge this big harder to learn off AND hard to sustain shooting... Expensive. I enjoyed shooting LR with a shooter and his 338LM. We had a great day shooting out to 1400yds.. he ran out of elevation. I was using a 223 and 80gr Amax... an extreme example but bullet is as important as case. There are plenty of smaller cases and cals that excel at ELR shooting.
Great glass is really important for this type of shooting and S&B offers some of my favorite glass. BUT it also makes it harder to see mirage in some light. Mirage is your friend in field shooting... If not shooting with a partner set up to see the mirage and help with wind calls and using glass like the S&B, consider adding your own spotting scope when shooting. Some brands of scope pick up mirage far easier. You will need to decide if that is a good or bad thing.
100yds zero... for ELR shooting and picket fence reticle scopes. Set up the 100yds zero using the TOP of the reticle or just know how high you will hit at 100yds. You are dropping like a stone and you need HUGE amounts of elevation for each 100yds beyond transonic speed. There is no need nor point to having a center hold, 100yd zero. When I took the 223 to a mile, my 100yds zero with full down on the scope was 44" HIGH ... my zero actually dropped the bullet beyond 1300yds. There was simply no other way to gain the elevation I needed to make the rest of the trip with scopes of the day. Decide how far you want to go, what the ballistics are like, what your scope and mounts can give you, zero accordingly.
Using a field bipod for ELR shooting. WOW, that makes life so much harder. If you want/need to use a bipod, have a look at the FTR styles of skipods. That would have improved their LR accuracy considerably. Even a simple pedestal rest and rear bag would have worked wonders.
So, this was a nice video and offered some good info... but debunk myths? They never stated what myths they were trying to debunk anyways so really not sure what they were illustrating.
But it was a nicely done video. Did show some problems you will encounter in ELR shooting and some reasonable info IF you knew where to look for it.
YMMV.
Jerry
A few thoughts:
On the positive:
I really like the coach/trainer. He has a nice direct simple style and obviously has been there and done that. Give instructions in a clear manner so shooter doesn't have to do too much thinking. The author of the video may have a lot of shooting experience, but ELR seems new to him.
You really don't need a long barrel for ELR shooting. No matter what or how it is launched, it will all go subsonic eventually.... if you go far enough.
I love how they were so dramatically able to show the boost of a "can"... I WANT A CAN!!!!
Really like how the coach was taking come ups and taking notes AND the notes agreed with the scope setting... so important, otherwise, someone is getting lost. And how the notes showed a constant need to adjust for ambient vs ballistic program output. Reading a number off a LCD screen doesn't always lead to a center hit at distance.
Talking in the same units... doesn't matter if MOA or MRAD. Just stick to the same unit in gear and conversation. Not sure if the spotter used had a reticle? That makes life SOOOO much easier for field shooting. If I shoot in pairs, we just use the same reticle in our scopes. Picket fence, Mildot, X mas tree... all doesn't matter as long as both "SEE" the same thing. My 2 left is the same as your 2 left....
YES, many modern bullets will not go through transonic flight well. Many old school bullets WILL. When a bullet starts to wobble, the impact area becomes HUGE. Really fun to see it "hit the wall".
MOA for the typical tactical, bipod, factory ammo rig IS great performance. But it can be much better.
24X as a top end for mag IS all you really need for rocks and gongs IF the glass is good.
On the Negative:
You definitely do not need such nice Gucchi gear. If all you want is MOA field accuracy, I can't think of a single modern heavy barrel factory rifle that will not be able to provide with a bit of tuning and proper ammo.
There are no shortage of rifles at these elevated price ranges that can provide far better then MOA performance at 1000yds. If a shooter really wants that level of performance, they just need to do their homework and reload.
They go right to the 338LM as THE choice for LR shooting. Far from it (coach indicated other cals). Most will find a cartridge this big harder to learn off AND hard to sustain shooting... Expensive. I enjoyed shooting LR with a shooter and his 338LM. We had a great day shooting out to 1400yds.. he ran out of elevation. I was using a 223 and 80gr Amax... an extreme example but bullet is as important as case. There are plenty of smaller cases and cals that excel at ELR shooting.
Great glass is really important for this type of shooting and S&B offers some of my favorite glass. BUT it also makes it harder to see mirage in some light. Mirage is your friend in field shooting... If not shooting with a partner set up to see the mirage and help with wind calls and using glass like the S&B, consider adding your own spotting scope when shooting. Some brands of scope pick up mirage far easier. You will need to decide if that is a good or bad thing.
100yds zero... for ELR shooting and picket fence reticle scopes. Set up the 100yds zero using the TOP of the reticle or just know how high you will hit at 100yds. You are dropping like a stone and you need HUGE amounts of elevation for each 100yds beyond transonic speed. There is no need nor point to having a center hold, 100yd zero. When I took the 223 to a mile, my 100yds zero with full down on the scope was 44" HIGH ... my zero actually dropped the bullet beyond 1300yds. There was simply no other way to gain the elevation I needed to make the rest of the trip with scopes of the day. Decide how far you want to go, what the ballistics are like, what your scope and mounts can give you, zero accordingly.
Using a field bipod for ELR shooting. WOW, that makes life so much harder. If you want/need to use a bipod, have a look at the FTR styles of skipods. That would have improved their LR accuracy considerably. Even a simple pedestal rest and rear bag would have worked wonders.
So, this was a nice video and offered some good info... but debunk myths? They never stated what myths they were trying to debunk anyways so really not sure what they were illustrating.
But it was a nicely done video. Did show some problems you will encounter in ELR shooting and some reasonable info IF you knew where to look for it.
YMMV.
Jerry
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I missed that, but caught it on the second viewing of the video, thanks.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
How accurate is the bubble level?
Jerry
Jerry
Excellent question! I cant afford a $500 mount, so I couldn't tell you.
I thought that video was typical of the old adage…. Never ask a barber if you need a haircut
What I mean by that is that you need to be mindful of the lens through which advice may be given.
If you want to learn about long range precision shooting, you may not want to blindly accept the advice given from a 100 yard bench rest shooter for example... Or these two guys in the video for that matter.
The guys in the video basically start the video with a self serving 1 MOA disclaimer that justifies long range misses later.
Take a look at the 1000 yard scores of the top shooters in a provincial or national F-Class event and you will see the 1 MOA advice out the window. F-Class has become such a precise sport these days that if you think you have half a chance with a 1 MOA rifle – you need to stop smoking crack.
Sure you can shoot at things like steel plates at long range with a mediocre rifle, which is what I‘d like to think is the point of the video, but it’s not a competitive rig for F-Class.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that long range shooting advice from these guys does not nearly represent the pinnacle of what long range shooting is or can be.
They're just a couple of "fairly knowledgeable" guys out plinking at long range.
What I mean by that is that you need to be mindful of the lens through which advice may be given.
If you want to learn about long range precision shooting, you may not want to blindly accept the advice given from a 100 yard bench rest shooter for example... Or these two guys in the video for that matter.
The guys in the video basically start the video with a self serving 1 MOA disclaimer that justifies long range misses later.
Take a look at the 1000 yard scores of the top shooters in a provincial or national F-Class event and you will see the 1 MOA advice out the window. F-Class has become such a precise sport these days that if you think you have half a chance with a 1 MOA rifle – you need to stop smoking crack.
Sure you can shoot at things like steel plates at long range with a mediocre rifle, which is what I‘d like to think is the point of the video, but it’s not a competitive rig for F-Class.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that long range shooting advice from these guys does not nearly represent the pinnacle of what long range shooting is or can be.
They're just a couple of "fairly knowledgeable" guys out plinking at long range.
You're kind of taking the 1 moa thing out of context.
He didn't say 1 moa rifle, he said 1 moa results.
That's actually very reasonable once you factor in the shooter and the environmental conditions. A rifle that hammers out 1" , five round groups at 300 yards consistently, is tough to make hammer out 7", five round groups at 1000 yards, consistently.
In perfect conditions everything might be linear, but in the real world, the further you go, the more the environment messes with you.
And a 20" 338lm is kind of an extreme example of a can boosting velocity substantially. Must be 20% of the propellant burning in the can !
notsorichguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- The city that rhymes with fun
I agree with you about the advice bit, but...... What he said was "an honest 1 MOA rifle" group after group after group, some groups might be small but all are at least 1MOA... You dont want a small group here and a small group there, you need large groups. He does qualify his statement by defining, what most on this board would call a .25 MOA gun, a 1 MOA gun.....
And don't forget, that guy is an "award winning shooter" with his 50bmg at 600y...... At least that's what he says in the vid....
And don't forget, that guy is an "award winning shooter" with his 50bmg at 600y...... At least that's what he says in the vid....
This kind of attitude shows the ignorance that comes from only shooting on a square range.
People shooting tac rifles don't give a crap about F-Class. F-Class is not a practical form of shooting. Neither the equipment used in it nor the techniques carry into practical field shooting. The people who would be interested in this video aren't shooting on a square ranges where all your distances are neatly divisible by 100, where the rings on the targets are scaled to be exactly MOA, with sighter shots to get you on target and nice big orange dots to show you where you're hitting and where your neighbour is hitting to help you with the wind in addition to having wind flags that are all over the place, or where you have a big heavy rest or little sawhorse trying to be passed off as a bipod.
The steel may seem easy when you think of shooting it in the context of square range target shooting, but matches that use steel look nothing like it. If you want to have the equivalent in F-Class it would look like this:
-take down all of the flags, those don't exist in real life.
-your first two shots at each target are all that makes up your score.
-distances will be random and odd (923, 267, 888, 1076...)
-the shots will not be marked. You will get a score indicator if your shot lands within the 5 ring if you're prone or within the 4 ring if shooting off a barricade, but no indication showing where it landed in the ring.
-most of your shots will not be from prone because in real life vegetation and obstacles prevent it.
-you'll have around 10 seconds to make each shot after moving into your position.
Get rid of all of that spoonfeeding and see what your scores look like and if the extra 0.1 MOA of precision makes any difference.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
And this is really the rub when looking at scope levels. How good is the actual bubble you are buying?
We all have carpenter type levels and the bubbles do a wonderful job for keeping a fence post straight BUT that quality of bubble is too crude to be useful for the type of errors we are trying to resolve in LR shooting.
Simple enough test... just start canting the rifle slowly and see when the bubble actually starts to move. The generic bubble can be quite insensitive to small movements so it really doesn't solve our problem AND they can stick... try it and see for yourself.
had a chance to play with machinist levels and their VERY expensive bubbles....wow, talk about sensitive AND repeatable. But that bubble is worth alot of money all on its own. And I have no clue how durable they would be???
With alot of stuff for precision shooting, the theory is sound but the actual product we use really doesn't solve the problem all that well. But sure looks Gucchi on the rifle.
For anyone that does alot of LR shooting, they should learn to figure out what level looks like. It really isn't that hard and far more reliable then a cheap bubble. Will it be perfect, maybe not BUT doping the wind will be orders of magnitude more important then possible aiming error induced by a degree or two of cant.
Prove it to yourself next time you are out shooting....
Jerry
