Working up loads for 3 rifles...need some help please all .30 cal

[kilohertz]

Hi guys,

Starting to work up some loads for 3 rifles, and need a little help with some basics. I have some experience loading and testing, chrono'ing etc. but now that I have 3 rifles to do, and with the price of all the components, I am trying to "use up" some older/cheaper bullets in the preliminary stages. The 3 rifles are Husqvarna 1640 with 20" barrel in 30-06, Voere Kufstien 24" bbl 30-06 and Tikka M55 in .308 with 22" bbl.

My basic question is this, and from the way I understand the ballistics tables, I think I am correct.....but before I begin...

From any given gun, will a 150 grain bullet have the same muzzle velocity, no matter what it's construction is? ie Spitzer, PSP etc? I know the down range ballistics will differ, but for the first 10 shots or so, getting things in the ballpark, would it be okay and not a waste of time/powder, to start loads off with older or cheaper bullets? Assuming 100 yards as the site in range, will there be a big difference in point of impact for different bullet shapes/ ie boat tail vs flat, basically the same question. Can I do the load work ups with cheaper/older bullets and save the final tweaking for the final bullet design of the same weight?

Here is what I currently have in my .30 cal section. I'm thinking of starting with 150gr and then work up some 165 and 180gr. Powders I have are IMR 4064, 4350, W748 and Varget. Time to get out the loading data binder I have built and start reading.

Thanks!

 

[RePete]

Hi guys,

Starting to work up some loads for 3 rifles, and need a little help with some basics. I have some experience loading and testing, chrono'ing etc. but now that I have 3 rifles to do, and with the price of all the components, I am trying to "use up" some older/cheaper bullets in the preliminary stages. The 3 rifles are Husqvarna 1640 with 20" barrel in 30-06, Voere Kufstien 24" bbl 30-06 and Tikka M55 in .308 with 22" bbl.

My basic question is this, and from the way I understand the ballistics tables, I think I am correct.....but before I begin...

From any given gun, will a 150 grain bullet have the same muzzle velocity, no matter what it's construction is? ie Spitzer, PSP etc? I know the down range ballistics will differ, but for the first 10 shots or so, getting things in the ballpark, would it be okay and not a waste of time/powder, to start loads off with older or cheaper bullets?

To answer the above - no. Because the chambers, bore diameters, leade, barrel length with have an effect.

Assuming 100 yards as the site in range, will there be a big difference in point of impact for different bullet shapes/ ie boat tail vs flat, basically the same question. Can I do the load work ups with cheaper/older bullets and save the final tweaking for the final bullet design of the same weight?

Flat base and BT will be different at 600+ yds, maybe less. A change in components means (generally) you start over again.

Here is what I currently have in my .30 cal section. I'm thinking of starting with 150gr and then work up some 165 and 180gr. Powders I have are IMR 4064, 4350, W748 and Varget. Time to get out the loading data binder I have built and start reading.

Thanks!

/QUOTE]

 

[purple]

IMR4064 and Varget are great in the .30-06 with 150 and 165gr with a slight nod to 4064. Use IMR4350 with the 180gr. Try Varget, W748 and IMR4064 in the .308.

 

[nowarningshot]

If you are actually starting with a rifle that is say...only bore sighted, using anything to get yourself on paper is ok. I often use SP ammo that has been deformed in mag box or whereever and use them, or for mercy shots. Someone told me that these have no different POI difference than perfect ....but i dont take the chance.

All three rifles that you list are pretty much hunting rifles. So with the above examples as a exception. Buy what you think you will hunt with, work up loads, go hunting. Ammo and the cost of working up loads is one of the cheap things about hunting. The expensive things being, fuel, time off, and the cost of missing the animal of a lifetime.

 

[stubblejumper]

Starting to work up some loads for 3 rifles, and need a little help with some basics. I have some experience loading and testing, chrono'ing etc. but now that I have 3 rifles to do, and with the price of all the components, I am trying to "use up" some older/cheaper bullets in the preliminary stages. The 3 rifles are Husqvarna 1640 with 20" barrel in 30-06, Voere Kufstien 24" bbl 30-06 and Tikka M55 in .308 with 22" bbl.

My basic question is this, and from the way I understand the ballistics tables, I think I am correct.....but before I begin...

From any given gun, will a 150 grain bullet have the same muzzle velocity, no matter what it's construction is? ie Spitzer, PSP etc? I know the down range ballistics will differ, but for the first 10 shots or so, getting things in the ballpark, would it be okay and not a waste of time/powder, to start loads off with older or cheaper bullets? Assuming 100 yards as the site in range, will there be a big difference in point of impact for different bullet shapes/ ie boat tail vs flat, basically the same question. Can I do the load work ups with cheaper/older bullets and save the final tweaking for the final bullet design of the same weight?

Here is what I currently have in my .30 cal section. I'm thinking of starting with 150gr and then work up some 165 and 180gr. Powders I have are IMR 4064, 4350, W748 and Varget. Time to get out the loading data binder I have built and start reading.

No you are not at all correct, you obviously have little to no experience reloading, and you have a great deal to learn. All 150gr bullets will not produce the same muzzle velocity. The velocity is effected by the bearing area, jacket hardness etc. As for doing most of the load develop with one bullet, then switching to another for the fine tuning, that is a bad idea, as the various bullets will shoot differently, even if the weight is the same, and the bullet type is similar. Even the point of impact at 100 yards can vary considerably when switching bullets, of the same weight and basic design.

 

[Dogleg]

I've done work ups with different bullets with limited success (Hornady Interlocks for Nosler Partitions, Ballistic tips for Accubonds for instance) but if you consider that powder and primers also cost money, trips to the range cost money, and time is worth something its probably not worth it. That's not to say that leftovers are worthless. Rough sighting and fouling shots, off-hand practice, fireforming and things like that are great uses. If you did manage to save a few bullets by starting with something other than the chosen one, you would just end up using the good/chosen/expensive/harder to find bullets where they don't matter. Blasting off leftovers offhand fills like its free, but the practice just might prove priceless on a hunt. If you couple that with the half full cans of powder everyone seems to end up with it will be free. It looks like you have a few weekends worth of productive plinking fun there.

 

[jsquig]

Agree with others, it will have an impact. I know it's kind of one of the more extreme examples, but .... a 150 barnes or other monometal will behave way different than a regular 150 jacketed, and of course way different than a 150 cast. Pressure will build up way differently and all of that.

I've heard this before, but never tried it so... not sure but..

What you COULD do would be to do a ladder test over a chrony with the old bullets, and find the velocity range that your barrel responds to best, then develop a load with the newer bullets that runs the same velocity over the chrony and you should be good. Of course to be safe you have to work your way up and watch for pressure signs with the second load too..... Seems like alot of work when you could just load up some plinkers with the old stuff, and develop the load with the new stuff the right way. If its worth spending the time doing, spend a few dollars and do it right.

 

[stubblejumper]

What you COULD do would be to do a ladder test over a chrony with the old bullets, and find the velocity range that your barrel responds to best, then develop a load with the newer bullets that runs the same velocity over the chrony and you should be good.

Another faulty theory, because the various bullets can perform very differently, even if driven at the same velocity.

 

[jsquig]

Another faulty theory, because the various bullets can perform very differently, even if driven at the same velocity.

Like I said, I've never tried it, I've just heard this. The reasoning was that it would find the velocity where the harmonic....whatever... works best for the barrel and gives a starting point. But ... like I said, all the work that would go in to this even if it did work sounds like it wouldnt be worth it.

 

[stubblejumper]

Like I said, I've never tried it, I've just heard this. The reasoning was that it would find the velocity where the harmonic....whatever... works best for the barrel and gives a starting point. But ... like I said, all the work that would go in to this even if it did work sounds like it wouldnt be worth it.

Start shooting more, and paying less attention to those internet theories. The harmonics can be different for each bullet, even if they weigh the same, and are driven at the same velocity. I have seen 3" difference in impact at 100 yards with two 140gr bullets, driven at virtually identical velocities . The group size also varied considerably.

 

[rral22]

There is only one way to develop a load, and that is to test the case/primer/powder/bullet you want to use. ANY change will produce changes to velocity, and likely point of impact at any distance. There are no short cuts; no cheap way to get out of the testing necessary.

Unless, of course, you don't really care about making anything specific for your gun. In that case, the cheapest option is to just shoot factory loads. Factory loads are exactly the kind of "generalized" loads like what you are proposing to try, and although factory ammo can be very good, it is not likely the best load you can make if you do the job properly with your rifle.

 

[Ganderite]

The answer to your question is .... No.

Each rifle is quite different and will react to different bullets differently.

You have a typical collection of oddns ends. Basically you are trying to find a good use for them. Your idea to use them for starting load development gets points for thinking. But it would be a waste of time and powder.

You have three excellent rifles. I suggest you consider the logical best use for each of them. For example, if one of them has iron sights, it can be your back up rifle on a hunt, in case you or someone else buggers up another rifle/scope. I have used my back up several times when the weather turned real bad, and once as a loaner.

If it was me, I would develop 180 grn loads for the 30-06s and a 165 gr load for the 308. Pick the bullet you like in those weights (like your Hornadys) and develop the loads.

I have lots of old oddsn end bullets. I also have old powders to use up. I load up the bullets with the crap powders (medium power) and use them for hunting practice. I shoot standing and sitting against a tree, and shoot off both shoulders.

Your 170 gr bullets are probably intended for a 30-30, and would be rather explosive in a 308.

 

[jsquig]

Start shooting more, and paying less attention to those internet theories. The harmonics can be different for each bullet, even if they weigh the same, and are driven at the same velocity. I have seen 3" difference in impact at 100 yards with two 140gr bullets, driven at virtually identical velocities . The group size also varied considerably.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it due consideration.

 

[kilohertz]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all of the great suggestions, much appreciated and that is why I am hear and asked...to get some options on my ideas and to learn.

Well, each of the rifles has a place in my heart, and it really doesn't matter to me which one I grab on any particular day. They are all scoped with good 3-9's or thereabouts, and each one has it's merits. I know each rifle will respond differently to each load in the same caliber, and as suggested, my idea would be fine for getting a new scope on the paper, but do the entire load development with the intended bullet. Both 30-06 have new scopes and need sighting in, the Tika has a fixed 4 on it and I may replace it...maybe. It's a nice old Leupold, I may just leave it for now.

So, just to clarify, if I work up a load for for a particular rifle, say a Speer 150gr Spitzer, then try the equivalent grain in another brand with as similar a profile as possible, say the Sierra 150gr Spitzer, the second one will shoot completely different? I'm using these for hunting, not paper punching in a contest, and I know the animal won't care what I am using, but I would still like to be as accurate as possible. I also try not to shoot beyond about 200 yards.

I think I will just give it a try with a few and see what results I get. It is after all, a hobby and it's enjoyable to learn while reaching the ultimate goal.

Cheers

 

[rral22]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all of the great suggestions, much appreciated and that is why I am hear and asked...to get some options on my ideas and to learn.

Well, each of the rifles has a place in my heart, and it really doesn't matter to me which one I grab on any particular day. They are all scoped with good 3-9's or thereabouts, and each one has it's merits. I know each rifle will respond differently to each load in the same caliber, and as suggested, my idea would be fine for getting a new scope on the paper, but do the entire load development with the intended bullet. Both 30-06 have new scopes and need sighting in, the Tika has a fixed 4 on it and I may replace it...maybe. It's a nice old Leupold, I may just leave it for now.

So, just to clarify, if I work up a load for say a Speer 150gr Spitzer, then try the equivalent grain in another brand with as similar a profile as possible, say the Sierra 150gr Spitzer, the second one will shoot completely different? I'm using these for hunting, not paper punching in a contest, and I know the animal won't care what I am using, but I would still like to be as accurate as possible. I also try not to shoot beyond about 200 yards.

I think I will just give it a try with a few and see what results I get. It is after all, a hobby and it's enjoyable to learn while reaching the ultimate goal.

Cheers

Probably it will shoot differently. Maybe it won't. Maybe you might by chance have a gun that will shoot two different loads exactly the same - but not likely. You also should clearly understand that any load that shoots well in one of your rifles may, or may not, shoot well in any of the others.

For me too, the "hobby" part is a lot of fun. I enjoy testing, experimenting, and learning. Reloading is science - shooting is art. It's a great hobby. But there is only one way to find out anything for sure, and that is to conduct lots of tests. That's why I always discourage anyone from getting into reloading to save money. For pistol cartridges (or any others you probably shoot 100's at a time) money can be saved. But to develop a good, accurate, effective hunting load will cost some money. All that shooting, however, is very good for you.

 

[hoytcanon]

You can get on paper at 100 yards by pulling the bolt, sighting on the target down the bore, then without moving the rifle, look to see where the crossbars are... make adjustments in the direction of the crossbars... in other words, if the cross hairs are low and right when the bore is on target, then adjust the turrets down and right the distance required... generally 1/4" per click @ 100...

Save your ammo...

And for Pete's Sake... the animal deserves more respect than paper punching... make sure your load is as accurate as you can make it... and practice with it as much as possible... KNOW where the bullet is going, don't guess and pray where it is going... remove as many variables as possible... don't intentionally introduce them... that is thoroughly counter productive.

 

[kilohertz]

And for Pete's Sake... the animal deserves more respect than paper punching... make sure your load is as accurate as you can make it... and practice with it as much as possible... KNOW where the bullet is going, don't guess and pray where it is going... remove as many variables as possible... don't intentionally introduce them... that is thoroughly counter productive.

Perhaps you misunderstood me, my point was, that I want it to be as accurate as possible, so that I KNOW where I am shooting. I am not working up the loads to shoot paper, it just doesn't taste as good.

 

[hoytcanon]

Perhaps you misunderstood me, my point was, that I want it to be as accurate as possible, so that I KNOW where I am shooting. I am not working up the loads to shoot paper, it just doesn't taste as good.

So, just to clarify, if I work up a load for say a Speer 150gr Spitzer, then try the equivalent grain in another brand with as similar a profile as possible, say the Sierra 150gr Spitzer, the second one will shoot completely different? I'm using these for hunting... I know the animal won't care what I am using... I think I will just give it a try with a few and see what results I get.

Maybe I did misunderstand you, but quite a few experienced fellas answered this question clearly... you said, "thank you," and then ignored their advice... with an inference that dicking around with mixed loads won't particularly matter for hunting...

If that is not what you meant, my apologies...

 

[kilohertz]

Yup, I must of come off incorrectly, as I really do appreciate all the input, and I really do think a one shot properly placed shot is of utmost importance...and really do want to know where the shot is going. Sorry for any confusion and such. What I was trying to say was, develop the load, the first stage, get things on target, and make sure I am in the 6" circle, then finalize the load with the "preferred" bullet. I now understand that even slight differences in materials in the jacket, and of course case thickness as pressures will vary, will affect the final result. There are many variables...I was just trying to find a way to use up the old stuff in the first 25% of the process.

Cheers

 

[Ganderite]

Yup, I must of come off incorrectly, as I really do appreciate all the input, and I really do think a one shot properly placed shot is of utmost importance...and really do want to know where the shot is going. Sorry for any confusion and such. What I was trying to say was, develop the load, the first stage, get things on target, and make sure I am in the 6" circle, then finalize the load with the "preferred" bullet. I now understand that even slight differences in materials in the jacket, and of course case thickness as pressures will vary, will affect the final result. There are many variables...I was just trying to find a way to use up the old stuff in the first 25% of the process.

Cheers

Develop your loads from scratch with the intended bullets. Then, make plinker ammo with the old bullets and practice with them. practice standing and sitting, as you would in a hunting situation, and practice off both shoulders. If you are sitting and the animal approaches from the rear right, you have to switch to the left shoulder, so practice it.

I practice at 50 yards at cans and clays.