Interesting info on M4 longevity (plus some info on shorties, pistons, AK's, mags...)

TRaTSeRiF

TRaTSeRiF

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Hey guys,
While my baby's still stuck in customs, I haven't been around this forum much, but somebody sent me this link and I figured you guys would enjoy the read.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/08/ar-endurance-findings-at-a-rental-range/

AR endurance findings, at a rental range
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Forget about any military endurance testing of the AR/M16 platform, a rental range in Las Vegas has some extremely interesting findings when it comes to large round counts, sometimes in excess of 200,000 rounds through commercially available and full auto ARs. Granted, none of the grueling testing procedures in place from a military standpoint are there, but for sheer round count alone, it really tells a lot about what some companies can take and what others can’t when it comes to their rifles and products in general. This all stems from a forum thread on AR15.com that was started in June. His screen name is HendersonDefense, and there is a small arms company in Henderson, NV called Henderson Defense, but the range operations he is talking about are occurring at Battlefield Las Vegas, a big time rental range in Vegas. His name is Ron, and he’s been featured here at TFB before in the form of a post about the rental AKs at his range earlier this year.

For what it is worth, here is the original post-

Here’s a little background on what we do. We operate a high-volume range in Las Vegas. You can’t bring your personal weapons in and rent lanes for an hour. Customers use only our weapons and our ammo. We only use factory new ammo and zero reloads. We keep maintenance logs on EACH and every weapon to include cleanings, parts replaced and any other issues that need to be noted. We shoot approximately 400,000 rounds down range each month and the numbers have actually gone up a bit for May and June. Tourists get to shoot everything from the Type 99 Arisaka, M1 Garand C and D’s, MP-44’s, G43’s, M2HB’s, 240’s, 249’s, MG42’s, MG34’s, M-14’s, Luger’s, Swedish K’s, M203’s, M79’s and you get the point. Some weapons are very rare historical weapons that rarely come out of collections or museums and see the light of day.

Here are some “facts” about OUR experience with M4’s on the range.

– Some of our M4’s have well over 200,000 rounds down range. Barrels have been replaced, gas tubes have been replaced, BCG’s have been replaced but what sets it apart from the AK47’s is that upper and lower receivers continue to function. AK’s get to about the 100,000+ round count and rails on the receiver will start to crack. It’s an easy fix with tig welding but they crack. We have yet to lose an upper or lower receiver from cracking.

– We get about 20,000 rounds out of bolts before we start experiencing issues. The headspace gauge will start getting closing on NO-GO but not close on field. We will lose a lug on the bolt. The bolt will start skipping over rounds in the magazine and fail to insert a round. We use LMT and Daniel Defense bolts and some will actually go longer but at about 20,000 rounds is when we will start to see issues appear.

– Gas tubes will erode away at the FSB after 12+ months

– Charging handles will “stretch” allowing the locking lever and spring to fly out

– Hammer pins and disconnectors on the 8.5″ full-auto’s will break after approximately 4,000-5,000 rounds regardless of the buffer weight..........
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Click on the link for the full writeup :) http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/08/ar-endurance-findings-at-a-rental-range/
 
Ar 15s rock as long as you get one from a good American manufacturer. Gas tube, bolt,buffer and spring,gas block and barrel at 20 k seems about right, unless its a novesque barrel, they will go 50k as they are double chrome lined like the fn saw barrels. ps 10 k if you use norinco or russian ammo.
 
Something that is failed to be mentioned. The range operated arms are used heavily and the M4 was probably fired in automatic. If Vegas had our type of Canadian cold weather I'm sure the barrel life is greater than what is given to us in data. This data is quite accurate as hard use in desert terrain.
 
AR15 parts wear out and get replaced except for the upper and lower receiver.
Get new parts, spend time and money changing parts etc

AK47 receiver cracks.
Throw in garbage and take a fresh one off the simple, ghetto machine line that just hammered out 100,000 of them in the last hour.

That right there is the fundamental difference between the ideologies behind the AR15 and the AK47 friends.
Actually Western and Soviet/Russian small arms ideology in general.
 
May be the philosophy but if im living in the us and I spend 10+ grand on a full auto Im not going to be a fan of the throwaway russian style. Your full auto receiver breaks you aint gonna transfer the reg number to another receiver.

Actually would be interested in knowing how well the norcs hold up compared to the american ones. Actual experimental data not "i spent 2000 dollars on this here rifle so I am going to rag out anything that was worth less."
 
Travis Bickle said:
AR15 parts wear out and get replaced except for the upper and lower receiver.
Get new parts, spend time and money changing parts etc

AK47 receiver cracks.
Throw in garbage and take a fresh one off the simple, ghetto machine line that just hammered out 100,000 of them in the last hour.

That right there is the fundamental difference between the ideologies behind the AR15 and the AK47 friends.
Actually Western and Soviet/Russian small arms ideology in general.
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You are making some good points.. Also they were able to repair the receivers by welding (because the law raised the prices of those receiver to a point where welding is more than viable). They didn't refute the argument that the AK family is easier to maintain in working condition in the field. An AK receiver would have to survive 300-400 combat sorties where a full load was blown (pun intended as a joke), before the receiver begins to crack, and that's under full auto fire conditions. That's like attending 100 Saudi weddings :sok2

Bottom line is that every mechanical platform has its gremlins. Battlefield provides a good controlled testing regime.
 
– Cleaning bolts and carriers is such a pain in the ass as compared to our AK’s, G36’s, SCAR’s, ACR’s and most other platforms. We throw them in the ultrasonic cleaner filled with Simple Green (EPA, OSHA and disposal concerns for us) and they never fully remove the carbon from the bolts. The armorers spend so much time cleaning them and keeping all the parts together as compared to most other platforms. - See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...dings-at-a-rental-range/#sthash.Dqf7OJ1C.dpuf
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DI gremlin!
 
0.5moa said:
Ar 15s rock as long as you get one from a good American manufacturer. Gas tube, bolt,buffer and spring,gas block and barrel at 20 k seems about right, unless its a novesque barrel, they will go 50k as they are double chrome lined like the fn saw barrels. ps 10 k if you use norinco or russian ammo.
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Here is a thread where they tested steel case Russkie ammo and Federal brass in 4 identical Bushmaster AR's. They logged all failures and after 10,000 rounds they dissected the rifles. The Federal barrel showed wear at 10k but was still serviceable. The Bear and Wolf barrels would require replacement at 5k to remain accurate. Some of the steel case rounds were hitting sideways as they impacted the targets near the end. Interestingly they also tried to test Tulammo but it caused so many hard extractions and failure to cycle in the Bushmasters they had to pull it out of the study. Good ammo makes a difference! http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
 
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Travis Bickle said:
AR15 parts wear out and get replaced except for the upper and lower receiver.
Get new parts, spend time and money changing parts etc

AK47 receiver cracks.
Throw in garbage and take a fresh one off the simple, ghetto machine line that just hammered out 100,000 of them in the last hour.

That right there is the fundamental difference between the ideologies behind the AR15 and the AK47 friends.
Actually Western and Soviet/Russian small arms ideology in general.
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The thing is, even at current low production levels, an entire AK costs only twice what a cheap AR bolt group does, let alone the other components that the AR will go though multiples of, by the time the AK wears out.

Given the problem that even the almighty U.S. military logistical system has with timely parts replacement on its small arms, the inexpensive "toss out, start fresh" approach has merit.
 
Hornychief said:
^^ bullets probably dont have the time to keyhole at 10 yards so they dont care lol
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I would have agreed with you until I saw for myself an AR repeatedly keyhole on paper at 10-15 yards (recent Wild Rose Action Shooters 3gun match). I had to take a photo of the awesome 10yard noshoot keyhole, couldn't help myself.

 
I would compare the AK74 with the AR15. AK74 is the more modern Russian platform. They have far more in common in a modern military platform than the AK47. 5.56 AR15 vs 5.54 AK74 round. The piston design of the AK74 is more reliable than the blow back design of the AR15. The AR 5.56 round has a slight advantage of accuracy and punch. The AK round tends to tumble upon impact causing more trauma. With the lighter round the AK cracking receiver problem goes away. The piston design of the AK effects recoil more thus less accuracy but not by a great amount due to muzzle break and gas discharge design. Both are deadly but IMHO the AK74 wins for reliability. The AR15 wins for accuracy.
 
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Firehoser said:
I would compare the AK74 with the AR15. AK74 is the more modern Russian platform. They have far more in common in a modern military platform than the AK47. 5.56 AR15 vs 5.54 AK74 round. The piston design of the AK74 is more reliable than the blow back design of the AR15. The AR 5.56 round has a slight advantage of accuracy and punch. The AK round tends to tumble upon impact causing more trauma. With the lighter round the AK cracking receiver problem goes away. The piston design of the AK effects recoil more thus accuracy. Both are deadly but IMHO the AK74 wins for reliability. The AR15 wins for accuracy.
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Homie yall be strait trippin. Da AR go so hard. Da 556 alway be hittin harda den da 545. My homie got hit wit a 545 he still walking. Real talk
 
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