Case forming 32-20 to 25-20/ fire forming

hillbillywilly85

hillbillywilly85

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G'day thanks for any input anyone has on his.
I've been reloading for sometime but now am venturing down the road of case forming for my marlin 25-20. Only Remington and Winchester load factory for 25-20 and there is a snowball chance in finding them. So I've resorted to buying the cases , but no one produces 25-20. Starline and Winchester say crunch down 32-20 to 25-20.
Steps as I understand is make sure new cases necks are round and not dented or folded from shipping.
Then some people say a light annealing is in order to after brass.
Then neck down the 32 case slowly while turning down FL 25-20 die./ but I have read some people say run new 32 brass through 25-20 seater die first then FL 25-20 die. Anyone done this step? Is it needed?
Then of course after formed trim case down to length .
Then FL size the case with 25-20 die.
Then check neck to see if turning the outside of neck is required.
Then fire form with a moderate load to to take on chamber dimensions.
Then check case neck thickness again and turn if required.
So what is a good fire forming moderate load roughly? 10% from max 15% from max?
Plus I'm aware you can loose up to 10% of cases during the process.
Anyone who has any experience or tips would be appreciated?

Also I'm using new win brass. And 86 grain jacketed flat nose bullets.
And my marlin is an original 1894 25-20 which is in excellent shape and metallurgy seems great. But still I wouldn't run a max load regardless.

Plus I have about 100 dominion 25-20 cases I picked up. And fired a couple and necks split on both cases. But I checked cast chamber dimension are great. Also I have a box of new Remington 25-20 factory and they worked fine. So I'm wondering would the dominions likely be pretty hot? Or brass is just gotten so brittle? They look at least from the 1960-1970 era of dominion production. Maybe I'm wrong of dating of cases?

Once again thanks fellow cgners!
 
That should work. You might not need to anneal new brass but you'll soon know. Starline 32-20 is very good brass, I have 1000 on order from Double Tap right now. I neck the Starline 32-20 case up to take a .328" bullet for 8mm Lebel Revolver and haven't had a single case split. I haven't tried making 25-20.
 
Ellwood Epps lists 25-20 brass on their website. it is possible they may have some available. Might be worth looking into, before starting on your 32-20 brass.
 
hillbillywilly85 said:
G'day thanks for any input anyone has on his.
I've been reloading for sometime but now am venturing down the road of case forming for my marlin 25-20. Only Remington and Winchester load factory for 25-20 and there is a snowball chance in finding them. So I've resorted to buying the cases , but no one produces 25-20. Starline and Winchester say crunch down 32-20 to 25-20.
Steps as I understand is make sure new cases necks are round and not dented or folded from shipping.
Then some people say a light annealing is in order to after brass.

Yes when necking down I pretty much always anneal the brass as I find it goes easier and Iget less chances or the brass creasing.

Then neck down the 32 case slowly while turning down FL 25-20 die./ but I have read some people say run new 32 brass through 25-20 seater die first then FL 25-20 die. Anyone done this step? Is it needed?

Personally I'd try a piece first and then go from there. If it doesn't neck easily then yep I'd run it through the seater first then through the 25-20 FL die. Going from 32 cal to 25 is quite a reduction so I'll be guessing that you will need to size them down a bit before you FL size them.

Then of course after formed trim case down to length .
Then FL size the case with 25-20 die.
Then check neck to see if turning the outside of neck is required.
Then fire form with a moderate load to to take on chamber dimensions.
Then check case neck thickness again and turn if required.
So what is a good fire forming moderate load roughly? 10% from max 15% from max?

When fire forming a case that small I'd use a couple grains of fast pistol or shotgun powder, corn meal and a plug of wax to do the job. I pretty much never fire form cases I've necked down as usually the shoulder ends up where it should be and the case is more or less done after running it through a die. I only fireform cases up usually where the case chambers and I'm trying to increase the caliber of the neck.

Plus I'm aware you can loose up to 10% of cases during the process.
Anyone who has any experience or tips would be appreciated?

Also I'm using new win brass. And 86 grain jacketed flat nose bullets.
And my marlin is an original 1894 25-20 which is in excellent shape and metallurgy seems great. But still I wouldn't run a max load regardless.

Plus I have about 100 dominion 25-20 cases I picked up. And fired a couple and necks split on both cases. But I checked cast chamber dimension are great. Also I have a box of new Remington 25-20 factory and they worked fine. So I'm wondering would the dominions likely be pretty hot? Or brass is just gotten so brittle?

You are correct in saying those old dominion cases are probably brittle. I've had many many dominion cases split at the neck over the years. So I anneal them before I load them now as it tends to stop that problem dead in its tracks.

They look at least from the 1960-1970 era of dominion production. Maybe I'm wrong of dating of cases?

Once again thanks fellow cgners!
Click to expand...

Anyhow I think you got the steps down more or less, only thing like I said is you prolly won't have to fire form the brass after as the parent case (32-20) is of the exact dimensions also the shoulder should be in the right spot once you run em through you 25-20 die. If they won't neck down smoothly then you will need either a forming die or find and die in an in between caliber and use that to neck it down slightly before you run it trough the seating die and lastly the 25-20 FL die.

Steve
 
Thank you for the replies all.
Steve, have you done much annealing ? I have done some annealing but it is limited, maybe others can chime in on their experience also?
My question is when annealing, I know you want a nice light even heat. (Some say use hornady temp dye) but what I was Wondering ? (I know this has been debated.) I do believe hornady has said quench warm case in cold water right after annealing so heat can't travel down case body. But what I'm wondering is the quenching really needed? I've heard arguments for and against?
 
jethunter said:
That should work. You might not need to anneal new brass but you'll soon know. Starline 32-20 is very good brass, I have 1000 on order from Double Tap right now. I neck the Starline 32-20 case up to take a .328" bullet for 8mm Lebel Revolver and haven't had a single case split. I haven't tried making 25-20.
Click to expand...

I've got star line brass for my .38 smith and Wesson pistol and yes I have no complaints on their brass.

But as for Winchester made 32-20 is all I could find at the time. Which I will have to have a peek at double taps supply. But what I'm wondering is Winchesters brass somewhat soft ? I know you touched on this in your comment about possibly annealing the cases and I will find out.
 
W-W brass is not soft at all, it is one of the hardest brass available. I have found Starline brass to be too tough and heavy to form down, my choice is R-P or W-W. I have made about 250, 25-20 from W-W 32-20 brass. It is best to size them in the 32-20 die first to make sure they are completely concentric, if you don't you will lose quite a few to folded necks. You do not have to worry about brass thickness with these cartridges and you will never have to turn necks on either R-P or W-W brass. These chambers are usually generous, in lever guns, and you won't have any issues with necks. Don't worry about the odd fold in the shoulder area as you will get a few but they iron out with the first firing. As far as loads go, you don't have to worry about your Marlin, it will take any load from any book, start with manual's starting load and work up. I usually work with cases with shoulder folds and work up until the brass blows out nice and clean. This happens at a very low pressure as the thin brass only takes a few thousand PSI to mould to the chamber, but never drop below starting loads even for my old Win levers........For a lot of the obsolete cartridges I use Cartridges of the World as they have factory equivalent loads and sometimes a couple others. They do not show a load for the 86 gn bullet but show 3 powders for the 60 gn bullet.
I found 500 loaded rounds for my 25-20s so I won't be making brass any more and I hate the losses with this reform, as they a quite high compared to most other conversions. I found FL sizing in 32-20 dies to really help in reducing the losses though and using a 306 expander ball also reduces unnecessary neck working.
 
c-fbmi said:
W-W brass is not soft at all, it is one of the hardest brass available. I have found Starline brass to be too tough and heavy to form down, my choice is R-P or W-W. I have made about 250, 25-20 from W-W 32-20 brass. It is best to size them in the 32-20 die first to make sure they are completely concentric, if you don't you will lose quite a few to folded necks. You do not have to worry about brass thickness with these cartridges and you will never have to turn necks on either R-P or W-W brass. These chambers are usually generous, in lever guns, and you won't have any issues with necks. Don't worry about the odd fold in the shoulder area as you will get a few but they iron out with the first firing. As far as loads go, you don't have to worry about your Marlin, it will take any load from any book, start with manual's starting load and work up. I usually work with cases with shoulder folds and work up until the brass blows out nice and clean. This happens at a very low pressure as the thin brass only takes a few thousand PSI to mould to the chamber, but never drop below starting loads even for my old Win levers........For a lot of the obsolete cartridges I use Cartridges of the World as they have factory equivalent loads and sometimes a couple others. They do not show a load for the 86 gn bullet but show 3 powders for the 60 gn bullet.
I found 500 loaded rounds for my 25-20s so I won't be making brass any more and I hate the losses with this reform, as they a quite high compared to most other conversions. I found FL sizing in 32-20 dies to really help in reducing the losses though and using a 306 expander ball also reduces unnecessary neck working.
Click to expand...

G'day c-fbmi thanks for your input. I have about 100 r-p factory rolled new rounds. Then found about 120 or so dominion as my earlier comment stated . But the dominions split so I think they need annealing.
I was wondering about full length sizing with 32-20 first. I read you only need to do the neck. But it makes sense wouldn't hurt to crunch the whole case for concentricity sake.
I figured my marlin even though being an early model wouldn't have any metallurgy concerns.
I also am looking for regular cases already made (I too hate the idea of loses ) but not many avail.
So w-w is quite hard brass . That's what I thought .
Thanks again.
Also where did you find a .306 expander ball. That wouldn't be for the 307 win would it?
 
hillbillywilly85 said:
G'day c-fbmi thanks for your input. I have about 100 r-p factory rolled new rounds. Then found about 120 or so dominion as my earlier comment stated . But the dominions split so I think they need annealing.
I was wondering about full length sizing with 32-20 first. I read you only need to do the neck. But it makes sense wouldn't hurt to crunch the whole case for concentricity sake.
I figured my marlin even though being an early model wouldn't have any metallurgy concerns.
I also am looking for regular cases already made (I too hate the idea of loses ) but not many avail.
So w-w is quite hard brass . That's what I thought .
Thanks again.
Also where did you find a .306 expander ball. That wouldn't be for the 307 win would it?[/QUOTE]

Virtually all your 30 cal expander plugs measure .306............30-30, 308, 30-06, 300 WM...........you get the idea, just steal a stem from one of your 30 cal dies and use it instead of the .310 that comes with 32-20 dies. It should just touch the inside as you pull the case back down and that is all you need, just to be sure all is concentric.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks again c-fbmi , I should of known better that my .30 cal dies are .306 expander. For some reason I think I was so focused on the whole process and how I will go about this fun endeavour, I wasn't even thinking that the expander are .306 I for some reason thought they were .307 inch . Why I made the .307 win comment. Lol

I went to go about this fun part of preparing more cases and on an on. That I didn't even notice that I don't have the proper she'll holder for this project . Since the universal she'll holder set and even my couple loose holders didn't seem to contain the odd ball 25-20 she'll holder. Which this she'll holder only fits the 25-20 32-20 and 218 bee I think. It's a holder on its own.

Not so easy to find. I'll try an add in EE.
 
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