Multi coating

dugasgunner

dugasgunner

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I found the concept of fully multi-coated optics to be pretty vague. A lot on optic companies brag themselves that their optics are fully multi-coated. But what does MULTI means. Is 2 layers considered to be MULTI? Or 10 is the norme? Is there an optimum number of layers? Do they put 2 on one side and 3 on the other? If you need at least, lets say, 5 layers to see a real difference in clarity, brands putting just two, can still say that their product is fully multi-coated... Just wondering when Mueller sell their fully multi-coated APV at 149$ and Nikon's fully multi-coated are 249$ and up it cannot only be a question of labor wages right?
 
Zero industry standard (unfortunately), but "multi" simply means two or more. Real thing to look for is it just the front and back pieces of the optic or is it every piece throughout the optic?
 
Multi-coat means more than one coat on the lenses. Fully means both sides of all lenses. Some coatings are better than others, but if the coatings are the same, multi is better than not multi, fully is better than not fully, and fully multi-coated is the best that scope maker does with their scopes. I.e an NCStar that is fully-multi coated is better than an NCStar that is coated, but not a useful comparison with a Zeiss.
 
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In order of quality from poorest to best, look at where the scope is made vs the specs on paper....

Worst to best:
China
Korea
Philippines
Japan/USA/Europe

I know that is pretty basic info, but it's not much clearer then that. Avoid the Japanese/USA/Euro brands "budget" lines as well as you don't get much for your money. Philippines scopes start at $125 and go up to $1500+....up to you to decide if it's worth the high tags when known high quality Japanese/USA scopes can be had for $1000 or so.
 
Nikon Travis M. said:
Zero industry standard (unfortunately), but "multi" simply means two or more. Real thing to look for is it just the front and back pieces of the optic or is it every piece throughout the optic?
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Is there a way to know? When they state, on all air to glass surfaces, do they consider the gas inside the scope as air? Probably not...
 
dugasgunner said:
Is there a way to know? When they state, on all air to glass surfaces, do they consider the gas inside the scope as air? Probably not...
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Air is 78% nitrogen, so probably all glass including internal surfaces. Otherwise they would be just "multicoated" and not "fully multicoated".
Some higher end makers claim 80+ layers on each surface, Chinese may have one layer...usually in green.
 
Hitzy said:
Air is 78% nitrogen, so probably all glass including internal surfaces. Otherwise they would be just "multicoated" and not "fully multicoated".
Some higher end makers claim 80+ layers on each surface, Chinese may have one layer...usually in green.
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Actually my question was what about the other pieces of optics inside the scope.
 
I doubt that coatings are as big a factor as how well they are ground to near perfect shape, aligned, and of course the quality of the glass its ground from.
 
dugasgunner said:
Actually my question was what about the other pieces of optics inside the scope.
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If it's fully multicoated, the lenses inside the scope will all have more than one coat.

What scope are you looking at?
SND said:
I doubt that coatings are as big a factor as how well they are ground to near perfect shape, aligned, and of course the quality of the glass its ground from.
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It's a huge factor. Without proper coating the contrast drops and it affects resolution and will really show in low light conditions.

Some higher end makers claim 80+ layers on each surface, Chinese may have one layer...usually in green.
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I'm not sure if it's true. 80+ sounds like a lot of layers, and isn't really necessary. Usually the it's mid single digits at most.

Also, most green coated lenses are multicoated. The single coat is usually MgFl which gives a blue reflection.
 
Hitzy said:
In order of quality from poorest to best, look at where the scope is made vs the specs on paper....

Worst to best:
China
Korea
Philippines
Japan/USA/Europe

I know that is pretty basic info, but it's not much clearer then that. Avoid the Japanese/USA/Euro brands "budget" lines as well as you don't get much for your money. Philippines scopes start at $125 and go up to $1500+....up to you to decide if it's worth the high tags when known high quality Japanese/USA scopes can be had for $1000 or so.
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few scopes are made in USA they are more assembled in USA with parts coming from different parts of the world ....

there is not that much factories today doing lenses, for the treatment that is a different story for sure.
 
To the OP, best you can do is look through the scope under the conditions you want to use it. If your eyes tell you the performance is what you want/need, that is what you should buy. Overseas can only cut price point so much before the actual quality of performance degrades. But there are many levels of "good enough" so best to just get behind the scopes if possible.

Scope specs are like bullet specs... some "match" bullets are more match performance then others.

As for country of manf, that is a tough way to nail down what you are going to end up with. Yes, the major countries, like Japan/USA/Europe, can indicate better quality but so much of the actual parts are made globally so there is no way to say that country brand X has all parts made in that country. Odds are it isn't and it is up to the company to spec the level of quality they feel fits their product, market and price point.

Robotics and CNC machines don't care where they are housed. And in the scope lense world, there are certainly factories that can make better lenses then others.

Some of the best lenses come out of the Phillipines. Nikon has a superb facility there and make great product for all their "other" products... just google Nikon Global and see... Very impressive.

Some Euro brands are actually rebranded/made from Asian stuff and not all of this stuff is very good.

Confused????

If you can, look through the scope. If you can, test the mechanicals. If not, you will need to find information that you trust and can make a decision based on. Brands change focus, quality and performance..... things most certainly do not stay the same

The box, brand and price at the consumer level may not be much of an indicator these days. If you are willing to spend $1K and well above, there are definitely products with solid reputations for performance.

Jerry
 
Interesting. So... If i like the optics, the mechanics, features, price, warranty and is made by a renown brand, i should not worry about the rest. As of now brands i like are Nikon, Sightron and Vortex. They seems to satisfy all of my needs. Thanks all!
 
Dragunov said:
If it's fully multicoated, the lenses inside the scope will all have more than one coat.

What scope are you looking at?

It's a huge factor. Without proper coating the contrast drops and it affects resolution and will really show in low light conditions.


I'm not sure if it's true. 80+ sounds like a lot of layers, and isn't really necessary. Usually the it's mid single digits at most.

Also, most green coated lenses are multicoated. The single coat is usually MgFl which gives a blue reflection.
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http://bushnell.com/all-products/rifle-scopes/elite-3500
Bushnell uses 60 coatings on the elites, I can't remember who claimed the 80+....one of the big guys iirc.
The exclusive Ultra Wide Band coating process uses 60 layers of coatings on each lens to boost light transmission to more than 91 percent. This translates to incredible brightness during those final minutes of shooting light when game animals are most active.
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dugasgunner said:
Interesting. So... If i like the optics, the mechanics, features, price, warranty and is made by a renown brand, i should not worry about the rest. As of now brands i like are Nikon, Sightron and Vortex. They seems to satisfy all of my needs. Thanks all!
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You could... but I would rather worry about the wind :)

Again, not brand bashing but as I said, some stuff within a company is great value, some stuff is ok, some stuff is just WTF? If possible, lean towards the higher grades within any company... in a few weeks, I might just put a great big exception to that but I need to see another scope to confirm it is worth talking about.

Confusing... you better believe it but shooters today want features... lots and lots of features. Many forget what they are buying this product to actually do.

Companies are happy to oblige so you can get a featured filled gee whiz bang wonder scope from a major brand. All the options you could possibly dream up except to make a price point, the actual optics and mechanicals are "sacrificed". Or maybe the material is lightened so durability and longevity is at risk.

There is always a cost to a feature and a compromise that goes with it..... unless you have deep pockets.

So set down your priorities and decide what this object must do for you and how/where it must operate.... then add the extra features that would be nice to have..... then see what that object NEEDS to cost to fulfill these priorities. Today, it may very well cost more then some are budgeting.... or spending.

I guarantee you optical qualities of a fully multicoated FFP, tactical knob, lit reticle, radar guided reticle, "SNIPER" scope costing $99 delivered ISN'T going to perform like a fully multicoated Sightron SIII sans bells and whistles costing 12 times as much.

YMMV....

Jerry
 
Hitzy said:
http://bushnell.com/all-products/rifle-scopes/elite-3500
Bushnell uses 60 coatings on the elites, I can't remember who claimed the 80+....one of the big guys iirc.
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Interesting. I'm no optical engineer, but it's the first time I'm seeing numbers like this. A new thing every day...

I've had a very positive experience with a nikon monarch binoculars for 200 bucks. I have compared them to a mid 90s leica roof prisms, I think trinovids. The chinese nikon blew leica away at dusk in terms of light transmission and contrast. Lugged them around for 3 years and they were still aligned by the time I sold them. It sure helped that they were a pound lighter than any german made "built to last" monster

After that I've decided that if I want to shell out big bucks for german brands, they better be a recent model because asia is catching up fast.
 
Dragunov said:
Interesting. I'm no optical engineer, but it's the first time I'm seeing numbers like this. A new thing every day...

I've had a very positive experience with a nikon monarch binoculars for 200 bucks. I have compared them to a mid 90s leica roof prisms, I think trinovids. The chinese nikon blew leica away at dusk in terms of light transmission and contrast. Lugged them around for 3 years and they were still aligned by the time I sold them. It sure helped that they were a pound lighter than any german made "built to last" monster

After that I've decided that if I want to shell out big bucks for german brands, they better be a recent model because asia is catching up fast.
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Sure they did. :rolleyes:
 
bearkilr said:
I'm not seeing Leica Trinovid's on there. :)
Only Zeiss Terra, which aren't "real" Zeiss.

Nothing wrong with Nikon, they're good binos.
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They are in the $700-$2000 bracket....
Doesn't look like there is any option but Chinese under $700....lol
 
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