If you ran a major gun manufacturer...

Brian46 said:
I would poach a bunch of people from european manufacturers like sauer, steyr, heym, etc and then build quality european type arms with my own twist on them.
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Well, sorry to burst another bubble, but you won't be able to do a thing.

  • Sauer was a proud german family business since 1751. Think about that date for a second... Bought by Sig.
  • Mauser was second to none just a 100 years ago with all the wars going on. Went bankrupt twice, was bought by Sig.
  • Haenel Gmbh - same thing. Half if not all of Suhl same thing.
  • Blaser not a single budget model, good markup on all products, good sales, all top notch... bought by Sig
  • Sako and Tikka were doing fine too... bought by Beretta.

They all had known brands, know how, knew market, had existing equipment and so on. All bought up and can't compete alone. Now you start a brand new company with best german people, how would you compete? You have zero manufacturing setup - costs a fortune. Investment you need to do that is enormous, you will never be able to return that investment, such that no one will loan and you will have to invest you own money. What for, to make stuff no one will buy because your are not cost cutting on every single screw until you run out of money?

If you want to have a market share of Rem or Savage, sorry, financially it is impossible to cut them on the limited saturated and decreasing market of civilian firearms. Unless all of the existing rifles vanish overnight and shooting becomes essential activity for at least half of the population.

If you care about quality you can only do a custom shop, but it will be very hard to afford all the cutting edge equipment and techniques. Not to mention staying in business at all.

PS
And this is even not considering a usual force major like "a new bill was introduced into legislature which bans brass centerfire cartridges - a known evil military technology".
 
If you ran Remington, make a 700 BDL Deluxe with a 24" barrel instead of the 22" in 30-06 or .270. This is the reason I have not bought one. And bring back the 3 1/2" 870 Wingmaster.
 
The only 870 made would be the Wingmaster and give free exchanges to people who bought the cheaper version unwittingly.Give Marlin back to people who knew how to make a gun.............Harold
 
this
Donny Fenn1 said:
First thing I'd do is quit making all these budget rifles 710,783 and SPS. They devalue the brand.
The 700 is awesome maybe their new factory in whichever state they're moving to from New York will bring the quality back up.
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Here is the problem...

All my "gun" buddies (mostly fudd type hunters who are tolerant of other disciplines but wont fight for them) know I'm an avid gun enthusiast. Every year just before hunting season I get the same questions:

What do you think of this axis, 710, 783 etc etc package? I say I don't know. They say I thought I thought you were into guns. I say I am, that's why I don't know. They say I hear savages are real accurate right out of the box. I say yes I hear that as well (all of their shooting is minute of pie plate at 100 yards).

For a large part of the market a rifle is just a tool used for 2 weeks of the year to chase deer moose etc. The guys who ask already know what they want based on the latest cabelas hunting flyer.

I get the same questions with scopes. They say what's the best scope brand. I say Schmidt-Bender, USO, Nightforce, Zeiss, Swarovski, Steiner, premier, IOR Valdada, Leica, Trijicon, Leupold. They say, I hear leupolds are really good, never heard of the others and what about bushel 3200?(another "high end" scope). I say ya Leupolds and 3200s are really good.


So the guys who buy "high end" rifles usually end up with a ss savage model 10/110 etc topped with a bushnell 3200 or leupold rifleman or low end guys axis/783/etc package rifles and walk away wondering why they even asked me.

Some of the entry level stuff now is REALLY good and accurate. Savage created a niche and others followed. I know this is just pretend CEO fantasy but it would be suicide for any one manufacturer to leave the fudd hunter market share untouched.
 
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I'd run Kimber and get them into the shotgun business.
Design a pump shotgun to compete with the Wingmaster and buy the rights to produce the old SKB doubles.
We need quality SxS's at a reasonable price.
 
Kimber used to have ou and sxs shotguns

If i could run a gun manufacturer I wouldn't be rich that's for sure. I'd try to be like Ferlach but less options.
High quality single and double guns with case colors and nice walnut. I'd chamber a lot of rimmed cartridges that brass is still available for and have a simple bolt action in 3 sizes. Micro short and long. Guns would be light and narrow with flush fitting hinge floor plates or blind mags. But it would be cheaper to just finance the guns I want and be happy
 
Shooter1971 said:
this

Here is the problem...

All my "gun" buddies (mostly fudd type hunters who are tolerant of other disciplines but wont fight for them) know I'm an avid gun enthusiast. Every year just before hunting season I get the same questions:

What do you think of this axis, 710, 783 etc etc package? I say I don't know. They say I thought I thought you were into guns. I say I am, that's why I don't know. They say I hear savages are real accurate right out of the box. I say yes I hear that as well (all of their shooting is minute of pie plate at 100 yards).

For a large part of the market a rifle is just a tool used for 2 weeks of the year to chase deer moose etc. The guys who ask already know what they want based on the latest cabelas hunting flyer.

I get the same questions with scopes. They say what's the best scope brand. I say Schmidt-Bender, USO, Nightforce, Zeiss, Swarovski, Steiner, premier, IOR Valdada, Leica, Trijicon, Leupold. They say, I hear leupolds are really good, never heard of the others and what about bushel 3200?(another "high end" scope). I say ya Leupolds and 3200s are really good.


So the guys who buy "high end" rifles usually end up with a ss savage model 10/110 etc topped with a bushnell 3200 or leupold rifleman or low end guys axis/783/etc package rifles and walk away wondering why they even asked me.

Some of the entry level stuff now is REALLY good and accurate. Savage created a niche and others followed. I know this is just pretend CEO fantasy but it would be suicide for any one manufacturer to leave the fudd hunter market share untouched.
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This forum is much the same and can be seen very clearly with the vast majority of suggestions people give when someone is looking for a new rifle in the different sections.
 
owlowl said:
Well, sorry to burst another bubble, but you won't be able to do a thing.

  • Sauer was a proud german family business since 1751. Think about that date for a second... Bought by Sig.
  • Mauser was second to none just a 100 years ago with all the wars going on. Went bankrupt twice, was bought by Sig.
  • Haenel Gmbh - same thing. Half if not all of Suhl same thing.
  • Blaser not a single budget model, good markup on all products, good sales, all top notch... bought by Sig
  • Sako and Tikka were doing fine too... bought by Beretta.

They all had known brands, know how, knew market, had existing equipment and so on. All bought up and can't compete alone. Now you start a brand new company with best german people, how would you compete? You have zero manufacturing setup - costs a fortune. Investment you need to do that is enormous, you will never be able to return that investment, such that no one will loan and you will have to invest you own money. What for, to make stuff no one will buy because your are not cost cutting on every single screw until you run out of money?

If you want to have a market share of Rem or Savage, sorry, financially it is impossible to cut them on the limited saturated and decreasing market of civilian firearms. Unless all of the existing rifles vanish overnight and shooting becomes essential activity for at least half of the population.

If you care about quality you can only do a custom shop, but it will be very hard to afford all the cutting edge equipment and techniques. Not to mention staying in business at all.

PS
And this is even not considering a usual force major like "a new bill was introduced into legislature which bans brass centerfire cartridges - a known evil military technology".
Click to expand...
so what you are saying is, just take over running sig and make the guns I want anyways? good plan.

My target market would not be north americans, but that is obvious as far as any quality european maker is concerned
 
Brian46 said:
so what you are saying is, just take over running sig and make the guns I want anyways? good plan.

My target market would not be north americans, but that is obvious as far as any quality european maker is concerned
Click to expand...

No my point is, that unless you are part of a huge manufacturing conglomerate you can't compete at the present market. Only huge entity like Beretta or Sig allows you to have investment in top notch techniques and equipment. Moreover it allows to negate risks such that one bad year or cancelled contract will not kill the company.

Its all a matter of money. For instance Sauer, Blaser, Mauser make all the rifles locking to barrel directly. Is there any magic trick to that? No. You just buy a machine which can cut the locking lugs in the barrel itself with enough precision. Can you possibly afford that or expect return on this investment unless you are making a lot of barrels? Not likely. So Sig allows all 3 to make these at one place and share.

Now why won't Ruger and Rem do the same, they have volume. But this volume is only available at the junk level prices, if you suddenly come to market and say that your barrel is $1500 to offset the costs of manufacture, no one in NA would buy that. Just because very few people can appreciate time + gunsmithing cost + tradition vs "you just drop a new barrel in and go". So assume you would get these german people to work for you and they have another dozen of innovations like that, would that help? Nope. There is no market to sell it and there is not enough of marketing power to change the perception of value. $500 basic junk rifle will sell on NA market, and the owner would join a huge crowd of forum people advising on bedding, shmedding, upgrades and aftermarket.

Your poached german engineers would cry for a year and kill themselves. While you are trying to educate your potential customers what plasma nitriding is and what benefit it has for your product. Manufacturing and engineering wise small firearms are on a very peripheral of a current technology level and you can't bring them up to date because there is no money on the market to support that, simple as that.

But hey! Zombie themed ammo! Yeah! Everyone buy a case, its cool.
 
owlowl said:
No my point is, that unless you are part of a huge manufacturing conglomerate you can't compete at the present market.
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the topic the OP raised did not say one had to be competitive, my bad

He clearly poised the question and gave an example allowing him to build what he wanted, not what would actually sell enough units to make the venture profitable.

$500 basic junk rifle will sell on NA market, and the owner would join a huge crowd of forum people advising on bedding, shmedding, upgrades and aftermarket.
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I loath this idea of buying a budget rifle only to then spending lots of time and money working it over into what you actually wanted from the start
 
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Ardent said:
Personally, I'd just like to revive Cooey, made in Canada. Offer some new designs, and old favorites.
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That's a perfect idea! All ye gotta do is get capital from well to do gearheads & gun folk to get the ball rolling after getting a decent shop set up for manufacture. Don't go public with the company though..big F-up. Greed wrecks everything.:)
 
Simple. Make a decent o/u 20g or 12g paired with a common center fire. .270 or .30-06
Every hunter I know wants a gun like that. Hunt small game and big game with one gun.
I just don't get why only .22lr / .410 is the only one readily available.
 
peter pepper said:
Simple. Make a decent o/u 20g or 12g paired with a common center fire. .270 or .30-06
Every hunter I know wants a gun like that. Hunt small game and big game with one gun.
I just don't get why only .22lr / .410 is the only one readily available.
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http://cz-usa.com/product/brno-combo-rifleshotgun-243-win12-ga/
Discontinued, didn't sell at all. Where were all the hunters you know?

Looks like you have to put a special order, available in fine gun stores everywhere
http://www.cg-haenel.de/en/haenel-jaeger/products/over-under-combination-gun-jaeger-810/

http://www.sabatti.it/Prodotti/Sei_un_cacciatore_a_piuma_o_col_cane/Sottocategoria/tabid/190/ProdID/22/Language/en-GB/CatID/16/FOREST__FOREST_STE.aspx

http://www.merkel-usa.com/products/rifles/b-class-guns/

http://www.blaser-usa.com/index.php?id=56&L=1
 
"I loath this idea of buying a budget rifle only to then spending lots of time and money working it over into what you actually wanted from the start"


Sometimes it is a lot easier to get clearance from the wifey for the budget rifle, and the tinkering afterward is half the fun.
 
Perhaps:
- a stainless over and under rifle with a synthetic stock. I would want a substantial caliber on top (338 to a 375) with a .410 3" on the bottom -Something weather proof that can drop large game and small birds/critters.
- a stainless synthetic take down lever action in 460S&W with a 16" barrel with a normal lever loop and a scout scope mount on a round barrel. A metal DM would be nice too...
Probably not popular but I'd want one of each.
 
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