It's a principle thing.
S&W 29-10 failure part2
- Thread starter dirtybarry
- Start date
It's a principle thing.
Don't actually know how much they were offering. No amount was ever discussed.
Absolutely pushing it. But based on the supposed upgrades back in 80's, I thought S&W's products were made to be used. Since it would appear as though they are not, it would be nice if they had the decency to state that in their advertising so people who do like to use guns for shooting can make an informed decision.
And I do respect them for making the offer, whoever the warranty centre that dismissed the claim without ever even seeing the gun, not so much.
What it comes down to is that this particular gun simply was not strong enough for the use that it got and that I think S&W knew that and never expected anyone to actually use one of these safe queens this hard.
Well your position is that the gun is defective or simply not designed and built well enough for its intended use and you can't prove that, I'm sure that S&W have and could. You are stating that the ammo used in the gun was made by you and that it was not defective and that it was not the cause of this failure and you can't prove that either.
If you shoot this gun as much as you say that you do, what is your maintenance program? Can you prove that this gun was in good working condition and properly maintained by a qualified person?
I understand that you have a ruined gun here but you also have a retailer who offered you an olive branch.
I'm not sure what "principle" you are referring to but the logical path forward seems very clear to me anyways. Of course it's not my gun.
I'll try to keep my responses in order,
It broke even though all loads were within SAAMI specs, is there supposed to be some kind of a limit on how much usage a gun can have? If so, why is that information not publicised? S&W does not appear to be interested in proving anything other than it's not their problem. All of my ammunition was reloaded according to established practises and data. So far I have found 3 different labs that can test ammunition pressures but they are all in the US and the expense and logistics make testing my ammo impractical for now. So I will concede that I cannot prove that my ammo did not cause the failure. Yet.
This gun was quite simply lovingly maintained, it looked and functioned as new right up until it failed. As far as being qualified, given my background, I'd say I am.
Yes they did and that was decent of them to do so, I'm not dissing them at all.
The principle is the implied fitness of merchantability which means that if you sell a product that is advertised as being able to be used for a particular purpose then it had best be able to be used for that purpose.
If I buy a stereo that has a volume knob that goes to 10 but the thing catches fire if turned above 8 or a 400hp car that can't go over 120Kph without the engine disintegrating, then I would like to know that beforehand.
If this particular brand and model of gun was never intended, designed or built for heavy use, then wouldn't it be prudent on the part of the manufacturer to make that known? And if the use of handloaded ammo voids the warranty, I would think that should be made very clear by any manufacturer.
Knowing what I know now, when the 629 that I'm picking up next week eventually breaks apart, I'll know better than to expect any kind of support. My gun, my ammo, my problem. No worries, I got this.
I would assume so but I can't say for sure as I didn't even notice it until last night.
I am a senior structural engineer and have some experience in steel failure. Looking at the 3rd photo, showing the piece that split of. It is difficult to be sure from a photo but there are some dark patches on the right side of the fracture. Generally speaking light patched indicate a fresh break. The metal has not had a chance to start corroding yet. Dark patches tend to indicate a preexisting flaw in the metal where the metal is not fully homogenious. That is a weak patch. As I say it is difficult to say from one photo but that is what it looks like to me. Weaknesses of this sort tend to fail after repeated loading. The flaw acts as a stress raiser and tends to make it easier for cracks to form
Sadly S and W has something of a reputation for not have adequate quality control and poor customer service. The required test for gun is +P loading plus 30%. There is no way a correctly loaded round should cause this type of failure ever no matter how many rounds are fired. I have double charged a 45ACP cartridge (yes I know stupid but I have changed my procedures to prevent this happening again) in my Ruger which effectively ended up at test load level. There was no damage to the gun what so ever and I have subsequently fired 1000's of round through this gun with no problem.
My conclusion, probably a production flaw in the barrel but sadly being S and W I doubt you will get anywhere.
Sadly S and W has something of a reputation for not have adequate quality control and poor customer service. The required test for gun is +P loading plus 30%. There is no way a correctly loaded round should cause this type of failure ever no matter how many rounds are fired. I have double charged a 45ACP cartridge (yes I know stupid but I have changed my procedures to prevent this happening again) in my Ruger which effectively ended up at test load level. There was no damage to the gun what so ever and I have subsequently fired 1000's of round through this gun with no problem.
My conclusion, probably a production flaw in the barrel but sadly being S and W I doubt you will get anywhere.
I ride motorcycles. I ride them at the track. The bikes that I ride at the track are ridden with the knob at 8 to 10 most of the time. I do not expect for one moment that my track bikes will hold out as long as my street bikes which are not ridden as hard. Same for your gun I'd think. I do not consider the reduced usable life of my trackbikes to be a manufacturing problem at all. My approach...
Perhaps you have done this but did you first reach out to S&W in the US? I did and they got me a case number and then directed the activity at MC in BC. Perhaps this may be an avenue to explore if you haven't gone this route already.
Best of luck.
Perhaps you have done this but did you first reach out to S&W in the US? I did and they got me a case number and then directed the activity at MC in BC. Perhaps this may be an avenue to explore if you haven't gone this route already.
Best of luck.
Thanks, I'm not optimistic but also I'm not done yet.
I use to do various forms of car racing and every single manufacturer of anything always had big bold disclaimers about how there was no warranty expressed or implied including that of merchantability of fitness for anything used for race use.
None of them ever bragged about a "lifetime service policy". Fine, no problem. I knew that from right from the start because they made it very clear. It also became obvious that some made things that worked and others did not.
I had a transmission input shaft made from 300M steel that lasted less than 15 minutes on the street. Including freight, it worked out to about $20 a minute. Needless to say, I don't buy any of that brand of products any more.
I've been in contact with S&W customer service in the US and so far have been told that it's my problem as the ammo manufacturer.
I do have other contact info that was graciously provided by another CGN'er and will pursue that avenue. I just wanted to have the gun back in my possession before doing that.
Sorry but it is beyond me why you would a) decline a refund and then b) decide to buy another S&W while c) continuing to rag on S&W; which I am sure you are planning to use in the same fashion as the first one and would be expecting a different result which is the classic definition of insanity.
a) getting bought off to keep quiet seems wrong especially when dealing with situations that could have lethal consequences
b) ordered the 629 a week after sending in the 29 because Geoff the bad man made it so darn easy and I expected a different outcome
c) damn straight, I plan on beating on it without mercy but will keep an accurate log of it this time so when it does fall apart, I'll have exact records of how much of what for comparison
d) if having high expectations of a reputable manufacturer is defined as insanity, then by definition there are a lot of insane people out there
ipscgraz
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
That is a hot load by anyone's definition. I agree that it is within posted limits but still a big thump everytime...if there were any flaws in metal or manufacturing, this would bring it out.
Glad to hear you are OK.
Oh, no question about that. It was a big woody inducing thump and I did find what I believe to be flaws but seem to be in the minority on that score.
While I understand you comments about motorcycles (rider myself) I believe a gun is different. This failure is a bit like the frame breaking on a bike. All items require routine maintenance, replacement of firing pins, springs etc I considered that acceptable. However a catastrophic failure such as this which can happen without warning and can lead to injury or death is simply not acceptable in a modern firearm. The barrel should wear out before it fails. Only the most extreme abuse should be considered as reasonable grounds for failure. Now failures can happen with any product but based on what I have seen there is a consistent thread to S and W's failing in this and similar manners and not being appropriately backed up by the company. Much as I like the look etc of S & W revolvers, personally, I will stick to my Rugers, the trigger may not be as good and they may not have the same level of finish as an S & W but they are tough and the company support in my experience is very good.
I really don't agree that the number of rounds in a session should have any impact on a gun blowing up. I know people who shoot 10,000 rounds a month without problems so 500 in session is certainly not out to lunch and unless you heat the gun barrel up to 300 plus degrees C it should have no effect. As this is way to hot to handle and load so I don't see how overheating is the reason. Good quality steel operating at 80% of maximum strength can handle hundreds of thousand of load cycles without failure. If the ammunition is within spec. a gun barrel should never explode, it should wear out first. Using H110 would pretty much eliminate the possibility of double charging the case by accident as a single load is pretty much a full case.
Overall this sounds like S & W trying to avoid liability for what seems to me to by an under designed or poorly manufactured gun. Remember all the car manufacturers that screwed up their design and said it is not our fault.
