Holos/red dots

cr5 said:
This may be an issue for a professional soldier but to advise a civilian not to buy one because they may have to make an adjustment of a couple clicks in order to hit center of the target if they sighted in their rifle in June and then they take it out for a day in December seems a little silly.
Have they stopped to consider that even gunpowders that claim to be temperature stable will still shoot to different POI if you shoot the same rounds at -30 that you sighted in at +30 and that you will even get a different POI after 10 rounds if you let the 10th round sit in a hot chamber for a minute?
We play on a one way range and having to make a small adjustment to an optic when shooting in the winter compared to shooting in the summer isn't an issue in my mind. I have to do the same thing with my long range rifles, when shooting on a +30C day my zero is different than shooting on a +10C day. I don't care as long as it holds zero all day once it's set and having to make a two click adjustment isn't the end of the world.

Any way you look at it and no matter what USSOCOM says or what L3 has changed their manual to say I would still take an EoTech over a Bushnell or a Vortex any day of the week. If an EoTech has those issues then chances are pretty good so does a Bushnell, it's just that no professional would ever use a Bushnell so we don't hear about it from them.
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Aside from the 4-6 MOA POI shift that Eotech's experience at the extreme ranges of temperature(which are easily achieved in most parts of the world) there is the issue of inconsistent adjustments, "approximately 1/2 MOA per click" is not what I call consistent or acceptable. Don't forget they weigh a ton are large, have issues with dimming or simply turning off, the battery life is rather lame compared to an Aimpoint and they are not a lot cheaper than an Aimpoint.

USSOCOM has put Eotech(L3) on notice and by most accounts it looks like they're going to get fed a huge $26 million dollar sh*t sandwich from the US MIL for their sub par products and willful deception regarding their performance.

I agree that an Eotech is a far far better option than any of the Chinese or Philippine options mentioned above like the holosun, Vortex, Bushnell, etc etc. The question still remains, why buy a prodcut with known failures/deficiencies when a proven optic can be had for similar money? Budget is a BS excuse for not aligning priorities and settling for low end junk. Without a doubt anyone who buys low end junk will end up buying twice(or more) and replace it with a quality replacement. I may have posted this elsewhere but I've had my T1 for several years and it continues to work as advertised and on it's original battery. I have yet to meet anyone who has regretted buying quality products..

TW25B
 
TW25B said:
Aside from the 4-6 MOA POI shift that Eotech's experience at the extreme ranges of temperature(which are easily achieved in most parts of the world) there is the issue of inconsistent adjustments, "approximately 1/2 MOA per click" is not what I call consistent or acceptable. Don't forget they weigh a ton are large, have issues with dimming or simply turning off, the battery life is rather lame compared to an Aimpoint and they are not a lot cheaper than an Aimpoint.

USSOCOM has put Eotech(L3) on notice and by most accounts it looks like they're going to get fed a huge $26 million dollar sh*t sandwich from the US MIL for their sub par products and willful deception regarding their performance.

I agree that an Eotech is a far far better option than any of the Chinese or Philippine options mentioned above like the holosun, Vortex, Bushnell, etc etc. The question still remains, why buy a prodcut with known failures/deficiencies when a proven optic can be had for similar money? Budget is a BS excuse for not aligning priorities and settling for low end junk. Without a doubt anyone who buys low end junk will end up buying twice(or more) and replace it with a quality replacement. I may have posted this elsewhere but I've had my T1 for several years and it continues to work as advertised and on it's original battery. I have yet to meet anyone who has regretted buying quality products..

TW25B
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To the first paragraph,
It's a red dot, I don't care if it's 0.5 MOA per click or 0.7 or 0.3 per click, I'm not using it for precision work, I have real scopes with crosshairs in them for that.
Regarding the 4-6 MOA POI shift if you move from +40C to -40C? I don't care much, sure it would be better if it didn't shift at all but it's not like I go out shooting at -40 and the last time I had it out the temp was +40. I shoot regularly so if I have to make a one or two click adjustment to put it back on zero every month or two I can live with that.
Dimming and turning it off? Some bright sunny days I wish it turned on at a brighter setting but then other days that are more overcast it might be nice if it turned on at a lower setting so the somewhere in the middle that it turns on at is probably a good compromise. Mine is always able to be turned up bright enough for a sunny day and I can turn it down enough for evening as the daylight is fading.
Turning it off? sure, simetimes I have to try twice to get it to shut off but that's me not doing it right, the second try always works because I actually press both buttons togethter.

I will agree with you that the battery life is not as good as an Aimpoint. My EoTech XPS is on it's second battery since I bought it used last year. I do however find that the CR123 is a lot easier to find than the stupid little 1/3N that my Aimpoint PRO and Elcan Specter DR use.

Second paragraph,
I don't care what they have to pay, I'm not a professional soldier or law enforcement, it's accurate enough and performs more than well enough for what I do with it.

Third paragraph
Known failures or deficiencies? it's served soldiers and LE well for years. It's more than good enough for civilian use on a one way range. I agree that given the choice now I would probably go with Aimpoint, at least until L3 corrects the issues. The good thing is that the next gen of EoTech dot sights will be better than ever.
I am also very satisfied with my Aimpoint PRO but I find the PRO to be more likely to snag on things and is bulkier than an XPS with not as nice of a FOV. I have no issues using the Aimpoint PRO but if you use it side by side with the EoTech the XPS is nicer to look through and obscures less of the image downrange.
I would rather have an Aimpoint PRO than a T1 or H1 but agree that those are both excellent dot sights as well. If you compare the T1/H1 to the EoTech then yes the XPS is heavy but I still like the shape of the XPS and the FOV is nicer. Personal preference, not knocking the others I just like my XPS better. I may have to give a T1 another kick at the cat one of these days of I come across a good deal on one but for now I'm happy with both my XPS 2-2 and the PRO.

Buying quality is always the best option when it comes to optics, over the last couple years I've spoiled myself with a couple Nightforce scopes, a Sightron SIII, and a couple Vortex Viper PST, I'm not as impressed with Vortex as most on this site seem to be but they are a heck of a lot better than any Bushnell out there. I will never be able to go back to using cheaper glass now and don't regret spending the money at all. If you move up to the Razor series I feel you may as well just buy a Nightforce which is known durability and quality.
 
The zero shift is not only being found when the guns are taken from +40 to -40. Many LE departments in the US are finding shifts occurring with much smaller temperature changes. Some changes have been seen taking guns with Eotechs out of hot patrol vehicle trunks. Some departments have found zero shifts during the course of a day, when the temperature has changed by up to 30 degrees over the course of a shift. Other departments have had to re-zero the sights on a monthly or quarterly basis. Even the FBI HRT found large enough shifts during their testing that they have dropped Eotechs in favour of the Aimpoint H2.

Again, non of this my be applicable to the Canadian civilian shooter, but why buy a sight with known issues? Also, as said before, it is your money.

Regards.

Mark
 
cr5 said:
To the first paragraph,
It's a red dot, I don't care if it's 0.5 MOA per click or 0.7 or 0.3 per click, I'm not using it for precision work, I have real scopes with crosshairs in them for that.
Regarding the 4-6 MOA POI shift if you move from +40C to -40C? I don't care much, sure it would be better if it didn't shift at all but it's not like I go out shooting at -40 and the last time I had it out the temp was +40. I shoot regularly so if I have to make a one or two click adjustment to put it back on zero every month or two I can live with that.
Dimming and turning it off? Some bright sunny days I wish it turned on at a brighter setting but then other days that are more overcast it might be nice if it turned on at a lower setting so the somewhere in the middle that it turns on at is probably a good compromise. Mine is always able to be turned up bright enough for a sunny day and I can turn it down enough for evening as the daylight is fading.
Turning it off? sure, simetimes I have to try twice to get it to shut off but that's me not doing it right, the second try always works because I actually press both buttons togethter.

It isn't that the adjsutments are not 0.5 MOA it is the fact that they are INCONSISTENT as in not the same from click to click. That is a major issue. Like has been said by someone above, the POI shifts are occurring at all temps but a predictable at the extreme ends. The fact you don't shoot at minus 40 has little bearing on the fact that the sight is incapable of operating properly at said temperature. Having to constantly rezero or adjust your optic is absolute bullsh*t. That is an excuse by someone who is trying to justify being swindled into buying one of these lemons. You wouldn't buy a car with tires that leaked and needed air every couple weeks, so why buy an optic that won't hold zero?

The dimming and turning off has nothing to do with the user. I was referring to the sight dimming itself for no reason as well as shutting itself off during use for no reason.

I will agree with you that the battery life is not as good as an Aimpoint. My EoTech XPS is on it's second battery since I bought it used last year. I do however find that the CR123 is a lot easier to find than the stupid little 1/3N that my Aimpoint PRO and Elcan Specter DR use.

The N cell battery for the PRO is a little more difficult to find, but you will be replacing it far less often. The other Aimpoints like the COMP M4 or T1 series have very easily sourced batteries and stupid long battery life.

Second paragraph,
I don't care what they have to pay, I'm not a professional soldier or law enforcement, it's accurate enough and performs more than well enough for what I do with it.

My point is that the issue is serious enough for the MIL and many LE agencies to dump the optic and sue Eotech for lying about their products abilities. It is serious enough that Eotech has removed the operating temperature range from their literature as well as replacing their "0.5" MOA"adjustment wordage to "approximately 0.5 MOA". That would be a legal move and on not done without good reason.

Third paragraph
Known failures or deficiencies? it's served soldiers and LE well for years. It's more than good enough for civilian use on a one way range. I agree that given the choice now I would probably go with Aimpoint, at least until L3 corrects the issues. The good thing is that the next gen of EoTech dot sights will be better than ever.
I am also very satisfied with my Aimpoint PRO but I find the PRO to be more likely to snag on things and is bulkier than an XPS with not as nice of a FOV. I have no issues using the Aimpoint PRO but if you use it side by side with the EoTech the XPS is nicer to look through and obscures less of the image downrange.
I would rather have an Aimpoint PRO than a T1 or H1 but agree that those are both excellent dot sights as well. If you compare the T1/H1 to the EoTech then yes the XPS is heavy but I still like the shape of the XPS and the FOV is nicer. Personal preference, not knocking the others I just like my XPS better. I may have to give a T1 another kick at the cat one of these days of I come across a good deal on one but for now I'm happy with both my XPS 2-2 and the PRO.

There are many reports of soldiers complaining about their Eotechs and the same goes for LE. USSOCOM and NSWC have far more germane knowledge regarding optics and firearms than both the average soldier and officer. They don't publish hunches or speculation. If it can be proven and repeated then it is fact and that is what NSWC and USSOCOM have done.

You admit you wouldn't buy an Eotech now which seems odd given your belief there is nothing wrong with them.

The FOV argument is a joke. Try using the reddot properly with both eyes open and you will notice that the non aiming eye is responsible for the unobstructed FOV. The ghosted image of the reddot housing is neither an issue nor worth worrying about it it were. When you shoot you acquire a target with your eyes, mount the gun, superimpose the reddot on the target while focusing ON THE TARGET and shoot. Should there be mutliple targets you then shift your eyes, then the gun and repeat the process. Scanning for targets occurs without the rifle/optic in your FOV. Shooting involves both eyes open for an unobstructed FOV that happens to have a ghosted image of the optic housing. This is not a concern as you should be focusing on the target, not the dot or the ghosted image. The fine 1 MOA dot on the Eotech does afford a marginal increase in precision, but then again a reddot is not a long distance optic so it's kind of moot.

Buying quality is always the best option when it comes to optics, over the last couple years I've spoiled myself with a couple Nightforce scopes, a Sightron SIII, and a couple Vortex Viper PST, I'm not as impressed with Vortex as most on this site seem to be but they are a heck of a lot better than any Bushnell out there. I will never be able to go back to using cheaper glass now and don't regret spending the money at all. If you move up to the Razor series I feel you may as well just buy a Nightforce which is known durability and quality.

Here again you admit that good glass is worth the money, so why are you continuing to defend the failures of the Eotech?
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In the bold

TW25B
 
TW25B said:
In the bold

Having to constantly rezero or adjust your optic is absolute bullsh*t. That is an excuse by someone who is trying to justify being swindled into buying one of these lemons.

Lol, I don't think I've ever owned a rifle optic combination that once set never needed to be touched again and I own a DTA SRS in 338 Lapua with a Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56 on it. Even it needs a click once in a while. It's just not the end of the world when it happens. Temperature changes affect your ammo as well as your optic. That being said a 4-6 MOA shift is extreme but it's still not the end of the world unless as MWL said you are a professional pulling the rifle out of a hot trunk and using it right away when the rifle was sighted in at 10C and now it's 50-60C from the trunk. But at practical ranges a dot sight is used you would still be hitting your target, at 50 yards your only looking at a 2-3 inch shift which is no more than a shaky adrenaline pumped shooter would be moving. I just wouldn't want to be shooting around a hostage to get at the bad guy if I couldn't trust my optics completely.

The dimming and turning off has nothing to do with the user. I was referring to the sight dimming itself for no reason as well as shutting itself off during use for no reason.

I've never experienced that with mine.

You admit you wouldn't buy an Eotech now which seems odd given your belief there is nothing wrong with them.

I just don't think it's that big of a deal that I would stop using it. Like I said earlier, It would be better if it didn't shift at all but it's doesn't bother me to have to adjust the sight slightly as the seasons change. I guess I find that 95% of the time it's close enough that when I'm shooting freehand ringing gongs as long as I'm hitting most of the time the misses are probably me and when I shoot at paper it takes 20 rounds on a target to see the average group being off center at which point I'll sandbag it and make a click or two adjustment to get it where I want it to be. Most of the time if I stopped to think about it I would probably just write off the shift to a fresh batch of reloads with a powder from a different lot # or that I switched to a different brand of bullet or something operator induced.

Try using the reddot properly with both eyes open and you will notice that the non aiming eye is responsible for the unobstructed FOV. The ghosted image of the reddot housing is neither an issue nor worth worrying about it it were. When you shoot you acquire a target with your eyes, mount the gun, superimpose the reddot on the target while focusing ON THE TARGET and shoot. Should there be mutliple targets you then shift your eyes, then the gun and repeat the process. Scanning for targets occurs without the rifle/optic in your FOV. Shooting involves both eyes open for an unobstructed FOV that happens to have a ghosted image of the optic housing. This is not a concern as you should be focusing on the target, not the dot or the ghosted image. The fine 1 MOA dot on the Eotech does afford a marginal increase in precision, but then again a reddot is not a long distance optic so it's kind of moot.

I have a hard time using both eyes open with these sights, I'm not sure if it's because I'm getting older and my vision is a little wonky with the astigmatism I've developed over the last few years or if I just need to practice more but I find I get double vision sometimes when trying to do it. That's not a fault of the optic but it doesn't work for me very well. I keep trying but end up just closing the other eye.

TW25B
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I'm not trying to argue with you about this and agree to a certain extent with most of what you're saying. It's just not as big of a deal for me as it is for you I guess. If I was using it to defend my life or the lives of people around me then my attitude would probably be a little different. Right now my XPS is sitting on my 9mm AR and it does a great job and has held zero very well. I've never experienced the dimming and shutting off issues you describe but I'm not saying others haven't had it happen to them. I own it, I like it, and it's not going anywhere unless it sh!ts the bed and quits on me. I also like my Aimpoint PRO and my Elcan Specter DR, I guess I'm easy to please and as long as I'm shooting I'm happy :)
 
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The issue is you're paying zero shift and .5 MOA adjustment prices and getting 4 MOA shift and .5ish adjustments.

If you feel like paying for something and not getting it is good to go fill your boots.

Shawn
 
cr5 said:
I'm not trying to argue with you about this and agree to a certain extent with most of what you're saying. It's just not as big of a deal for me as it is for you I guess. If I was using it to defend my life or the lives of people around me then my attitude would probably be a little different. Right now my XPS is sitting on my 9mm AR and it does a great job and has held zero very well. I've never experienced the dimming and shutting off issues you describe but I'm not saying others haven't had it happen to them. I own it, I like it, and it's not going anywhere unless it sh!ts the bed and quits on me. I also like my Aimpoint PRO and my Elcan Specter DR, I guess I'm easy to please and as long as I'm shooting I'm happy :)
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Late reply but here it is.

The issues are what they are and it is a serious problem. With many LE dept's using Eotech optics as well as soldiers the issues are of grave circumstance. I certainly don't want my local LEO using an optic with a questionable ability to both operate properly and hold it's zero. For you or others that may not make the biggest difference, but as Shawn above pointed out, you're paying for a premium level of optic and getting cheap sh*t performance. Eotech has been a dead horse for quite a few years now, and this latest gem is the last nail in the coffin.

TW25B
 
I use a Bushnell First Strike for yotes on a XCR-L on a 45 Deg picatinney mount as a close range(inside 100 m) and a Burris 1.75-7 for longer.

Easy to sight in and never had an issue in the year I've used it. Keeping up with the cover might be an issue.
 
There is a report socom is looking to replace all eotechs.

You have to wonder why trijicon is spending so much money on developing new reflex sights when the market is soooo crowded. Looks like everyone knows that it is coming years ago.

The only alternative was aimpoint before trijicon starts pushing their verisons.
 
greentips said:
There is a report socom is looking to replace all eotechs.

You have to wonder why trijicon is spending so much money on developing new reflex sights when the market is soooo crowded. Looks like everyone knows that it is coming years ago.

The only alternative was aimpoint before trijicon starts pushing their verisons.
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The writing was on the wall years ago for those who could see it. Trijicon IMO will have a tough go selling the MRO, the variable eye relief sweet spot and image shift issues are not helping to sell it. I was deeply disappointed with the MRO. I hope Trijicon fixes the issues.

TW25B
 
With a 300$ budget, get either a vortex or burris. I'd suggest the Vortex Sparc II.

The next step up to 400-600$, get the Aimpoint PRO... Anything higher you're looking at eotech/trijicon/meprolight etc.


Summary: get a Vortex Sparc II if you don't want to break the bank.. Or sack up the extra 200$ and get an Aimpoint PRO and you won't be disappointed.
 
Mr. said:
With a 300$ budget, get either a vortex or burris. I'd suggest the Vortex Sparc II.

The next step up to 400-600$, get the Aimpoint PRO... Anything higher you're looking at eotech/trijicon/meprolight etc.


Summary: get a Vortex Sparc II if you don't want to break the bank.. Or sack up the extra 200$ and get an Aimpoint PRO and you won't be disappointed.
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Save more money and buy a high quality optic. Vortex is low end product with mid range pricing. Saying you can't afford an Aimpoint is an excuse. Sell some stuff you don't use or want, re align your priorities and free up the capital to buy the better optic. Short changing yourself with a low end offering will come back to haunt you.

Local
 
Local said:
Save more money and buy a high quality optic. Vortex is low end product with mid range pricing. Saying you can't afford an Aimpoint is an excuse. Sell some stuff you don't use or want, re align your priorities and free up the capital to buy the better optic. Short changing yourself with a low end offering will come back to haunt you.

Local
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Excellent advice.
Cheap glass always gets replaced and you never get your money back out of the cheap stuff.
 
Local said:
Have you seen the recent recall from the US military? Eotech is in trouble and their optics are sketchy.

Local
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cause you know, everybody should take their shooting advice from what the US military does. having said that. I have eotech. but I use my aimpoint more. Not because eotech is sketchy, but because Aimpoint red dot, makes me a shooting superstar.
 
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