Does anyone know why (or more correctly how ? ) the ATA Etro 8 shotgun is classified as non-restricted? There are a few other "short long rifles" out there also classified as non-restricted. This is great since they can be carried for predator defense etc, but I just do not understand how this classification works, as it is shorter than the legal requirement of 26inches/660mm to be non restricted. A friend has explained that this is because this type of gun require 2 hands to shoot and cycle the rounds, just like the shortie lever action guns which are also non restricted. I have tried to find this online but had no luck at all. Does anyone understand this stuff well enough to clarify it? Thank a lot for your time and expertise !
Non Resticted ( ? ) ATA Etro 8 Shotgun shortie
- Thread starter Gatvolboerseun
- Start date
If the OAL of this shotgun is less than 660mm 26" when folded, it should be classed as a "restricted shotgun", if someone could check in the FRT listing, it should be explained why.
i have an Ithaca Stakeout which is exactly the same configuration and it is classed as a "restricted shotgun", and yes the Stakeout require two hands to shoot.
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i have an Ithaca Stakeout which is exactly the same configuration and it is classed as a "restricted shotgun", and yes the Stakeout require two hands to shoot.
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OAL is 24.75 with the pistol grip installed, BUT it comes with an additional fixed stock? Found that info at firearms outlet canada...
It's Non-Restricted with the fixed stock... But OAL is under 26" with the pistol grip installed...
Cheers
Jay
It's Non-Restricted with the fixed stock... But OAL is under 26" with the pistol grip installed...
Cheers
Jay
No, that is not the case. BulleyeLondon (amongst others) lists it as well and you do not get the full stock, just the pistol grip. I know the RCMP decides the status of each new firearm sold in Canada, and can assign status as they see appropriate. I have no way of checking the FRT on this gun but it is sold through multiple outlets in Canada with pistol grip only classified as non restricted. There are some "Mare's Leg" lever guns that also fall into this category with similar use. Hope I did not open a can of worms here, I like the idea of a portable predator gun for use when we are horse riding in bear alley.
Examples of other non-restricted rifles shorter than 26"/660mm currently listed by online dealers:
Rossi Ranch Hand barrel 12" OAL 24"
Henry Mare's Leg barrel 12 7/8" OAL 25"
Chiappa 1892 Mare's Leg barrel 12" OAL 23"
With these lever guns there is no way to get the stock longer, so the non-restricted classification is valid as is, thus shorter than 660mm.
There must be more details to the classification process that what the legal summaries I can find online provides. The RCMP has significant authority to decide the classification of firearms and I am really grateful that there are at least some non-restricted options out there to choose from. My family don't hunt at all but spend 4-5 days per week during horse riding season in the bush. There were 4 bear attacks in our area this year and some form of predator protection makes a lot of sense. These shorter rifles are way easier to deal with while on horseback.
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I called the Canadian Firearms Program today to check on this gun's classification. Spoke to an exceptionally friendly gent with a very heavy French accent. It took us a while to identify this specific firearm, but it is NON RESTRICTED for sure. When I asked why/how he simply said "why not, it meets the exemption criteria to be non restricted". I mentioned the length with the pistol grip and that there are some sold with an additional buttstock, and some without it. To this he simply said that it will remain non restricted with the longer buttstock as well. He said not to modify it from the factory condition as this may alter the classification. He also mentioned several other "shorter long" firearms that fall into this category of which I only recognized the mare's leg type lever guns.
So I still have no better understanding of how this system works, but I guess laws are to respected and followed and not necessarily understood.
Now I hope that all my local Mounties/Conservation Officers know about the Etro 8 being non restricted as well !
So I still have no better understanding of how this system works, but I guess laws are to respected and followed and not necessarily understood.
Now I hope that all my local Mounties/Conservation Officers know about the Etro 8 being non restricted as well !
Blastattack
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg MB
Y'all need to read the laws.
Rimfire long-arm (non-handgun):
Factory barrel over 470mm = Non Restricted
Factory barrel greater than 457mm and less than 470mm: Non-Restricted
Factory barrel less than 457mm = Non Restricted
Factory barrel CUT to between 457mm and 470mm: Non Restricted
Factory barrel CUT to less than 457mm: Prohibited
Factory barrel less than 457mm CUT shorter AND an OAL greater than 660mm: Prohibited
Any modification (cutting or "collapsing") where the firearm can fire at a length of less than 660mm: Prohibited
Centerfire Semi-Automatic long-arm (non-handgun):
Factory barrel over 470mm = Non Restricted
Factory barrel greater than 457mm and less than 470mm: Restricted
Factory barrel less than 457mm = Restricted
Factory barrel CUT to between 457mm and 470mm: Restricted
Factory barrel CUT to less than 457mm: Prohibited
Factory barrel less than 457mm CUT shorter AND an OAL greater than 660mm: Prohibited
Any modification (cutting or "collapsing") where the firearm can fire at a length of less than 660mm: Prohibited
Non-Semi-Automatic long arm (non-handgun):
Factory barrel over 470mm = Non Restricted
Factory barrel greater than 457mm and less than 470mm: Non-Restricted
Factory barrel less than 457mm = Non-Restricted
Factory barrel CUT to between 457mm and 470mm: Restricted
Factory barrel CUT to less than 457mm: Prohibited
Factory barrel less than 457mm CUT shorter AND an OAL greater than 660mm: Prohibited
Any modification (cutting or "collapsing") where the firearm can fire at a length of less than 660mm: Prohibited
I think That's everything covered. Anythign I missed?
Rimfire long-arm (non-handgun):
Factory barrel over 470mm = Non Restricted
Factory barrel greater than 457mm and less than 470mm: Non-Restricted
Factory barrel less than 457mm = Non Restricted
Factory barrel CUT to between 457mm and 470mm: Non Restricted
Factory barrel CUT to less than 457mm: Prohibited
Factory barrel less than 457mm CUT shorter AND an OAL greater than 660mm: Prohibited
Any modification (cutting or "collapsing") where the firearm can fire at a length of less than 660mm: Prohibited
Centerfire Semi-Automatic long-arm (non-handgun):
Factory barrel over 470mm = Non Restricted
Factory barrel greater than 457mm and less than 470mm: Restricted
Factory barrel less than 457mm = Restricted
Factory barrel CUT to between 457mm and 470mm: Restricted
Factory barrel CUT to less than 457mm: Prohibited
Factory barrel less than 457mm CUT shorter AND an OAL greater than 660mm: Prohibited
Any modification (cutting or "collapsing") where the firearm can fire at a length of less than 660mm: Prohibited
Non-Semi-Automatic long arm (non-handgun):
Factory barrel over 470mm = Non Restricted
Factory barrel greater than 457mm and less than 470mm: Non-Restricted
Factory barrel less than 457mm = Non-Restricted
Factory barrel CUT to between 457mm and 470mm: Restricted
Factory barrel CUT to less than 457mm: Prohibited
Factory barrel less than 457mm CUT shorter AND an OAL greater than 660mm: Prohibited
Any modification (cutting or "collapsing") where the firearm can fire at a length of less than 660mm: Prohibited
I think That's everything covered. Anythign I missed?
Well then it means that some shotgun with the same configuration are restricted and some are unrestricted and no one know why, not even them.
If this is true it's totally arbitrary
Like i said, my Ithaca Stakeout (wich is exactly the same configuration as the ATRA etro 8) is deemed restricted in the FRT listing but the ATRA etro 8 is not? i can't believe that !
Same thing happen to Dlask a few years ago.
Only way to know the truth is to have access to the FRT information about the ATRA shotgun, everything should be explain in the FRT listing.
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If this is true it's totally arbitrary
Like i said, my Ithaca Stakeout (wich is exactly the same configuration as the ATRA etro 8) is deemed restricted in the FRT listing but the ATRA etro 8 is not? i can't believe that !
Same thing happen to Dlask a few years ago.
Only way to know the truth is to have access to the FRT information about the ATRA shotgun, everything should be explain in the FRT listing.
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I have (finally) found the information needed to understand this non-restricted vs restricted classification system.
The full content is available here: https://nfa.ca/resource-items/barrel-and-firearms-lengths
I quote:
"OVERALL LENGTH LESS THAN 26"/660mm RULES:
CC s. 84(1) "prohibited firearm" (b): This is another clause of the same law -- the one cited immediately above -- and it applies in the same way. If the firearm ARRIVES at the "less than 26"/660mm in overall length" condition by "sawing, cutting" etc., then it is forced into the "prohibited firearm" class. If it left the factory at that too-short length, the limit does NOT apply. It is non-restricted, UNLESS it is semi-automatic AND centrefire.
Example: A Remington Model 870 pump-action shotgun that has been fitted with a Scattergun Technologies 12"/305mm barrel and a Pachmayr pistol grip is less than 26"/660mm in overall length, but is NOT "prohibited." It is a "prohibited firearm" if this was done to a Remington 870 that left the factory with those parts, but it is non-restricted if it was re-manufactured and left the Scattergun Technologies factory with them. It doesn't HAVE to make sense -- it's GOVERNMENT POLICY. "
From the full text ( see the link above ) it is clear that clauses and amendments are applied to the guns laws and these explain the detailed classification of firearms that may not seem to make sense when only the main body of the law is reviewed.
From my other research in the last few days I conclude that:
1) The classification of some firearms that was determined before clauses/amendments took effect may have been decided on different terms and therefore the classification of such firearms does not seem to make any sense now, creating a false picture of "random" classification. It is not random at all but follows specific rules.
2) that said the RCMP has the right/duty to deviate from the above and determine a specific firearm to be restricted or even prohibited if they feel it is appropriate to do so, and many such examples exist as you very well know. These decisions are influenced by multiple criteria for example how easily a specific firearm can be altered or adapted to fire in full auto mode, what the original design was intended for (military vs civilian use) and many more.
I now fully understand my conversation with the gentleman from the Canadian Firearms Program mentioned earlier, as it indeed does make perfect sense for the ATA Etro 8 to be non-restricted as long as it is in stock factory condition.
I think I will get one of these handy short shotguns to keep my family safe from bears and other nasty beasts during our horse riding trips, but I will print some paperwork to keep with me as this information is not common knowledge with all officers of the law and I do not wish to have any troubles along the way.
Thanks for all the opinions and advice.
The full content is available here: https://nfa.ca/resource-items/barrel-and-firearms-lengths
I quote:
"OVERALL LENGTH LESS THAN 26"/660mm RULES:
CC s. 84(1) "prohibited firearm" (b): This is another clause of the same law -- the one cited immediately above -- and it applies in the same way. If the firearm ARRIVES at the "less than 26"/660mm in overall length" condition by "sawing, cutting" etc., then it is forced into the "prohibited firearm" class. If it left the factory at that too-short length, the limit does NOT apply. It is non-restricted, UNLESS it is semi-automatic AND centrefire.
Example: A Remington Model 870 pump-action shotgun that has been fitted with a Scattergun Technologies 12"/305mm barrel and a Pachmayr pistol grip is less than 26"/660mm in overall length, but is NOT "prohibited." It is a "prohibited firearm" if this was done to a Remington 870 that left the factory with those parts, but it is non-restricted if it was re-manufactured and left the Scattergun Technologies factory with them. It doesn't HAVE to make sense -- it's GOVERNMENT POLICY. "
From the full text ( see the link above ) it is clear that clauses and amendments are applied to the guns laws and these explain the detailed classification of firearms that may not seem to make sense when only the main body of the law is reviewed.
From my other research in the last few days I conclude that:
1) The classification of some firearms that was determined before clauses/amendments took effect may have been decided on different terms and therefore the classification of such firearms does not seem to make any sense now, creating a false picture of "random" classification. It is not random at all but follows specific rules.
2) that said the RCMP has the right/duty to deviate from the above and determine a specific firearm to be restricted or even prohibited if they feel it is appropriate to do so, and many such examples exist as you very well know. These decisions are influenced by multiple criteria for example how easily a specific firearm can be altered or adapted to fire in full auto mode, what the original design was intended for (military vs civilian use) and many more.
I now fully understand my conversation with the gentleman from the Canadian Firearms Program mentioned earlier, as it indeed does make perfect sense for the ATA Etro 8 to be non-restricted as long as it is in stock factory condition.
I think I will get one of these handy short shotguns to keep my family safe from bears and other nasty beasts during our horse riding trips, but I will print some paperwork to keep with me as this information is not common knowledge with all officers of the law and I do not wish to have any troubles along the way.
Thanks for all the opinions and advice.
Like i said.
Try to find a printout of the FRT (Firearm Reference Table) for this firearm, it's more legit than anything you may find on Internet, as i understand there is many different model of this gun on the market. The FRT will give you much more official information, and it may explain the differences between models because some may be restricted class.
From what i understand, a factory pump shotgun with less than 660mm in oal is restricted if it come in that configuration from factory and this model fit that description.
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Try to find a printout of the FRT (Firearm Reference Table) for this firearm, it's more legit than anything you may find on Internet, as i understand there is many different model of this gun on the market. The FRT will give you much more official information, and it may explain the differences between models because some may be restricted class.
From what i understand, a factory pump shotgun with less than 660mm in oal is restricted if it come in that configuration from factory and this model fit that description.
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As recommended I pursued the FRT for final clarification. I contacted the importer/distributer (O'Dell Engineering Ltd) who responded almost immediately and provided excellent assistance.
Here is the applicable part of the e-mail I received from them - I quote :
"There are two FRT references for the short Etro pump action shotgun. We imported the Etro 8 under FRT 140314-1 which is non-restricted. The gun is delivered from the factory in the configuration with the rear vertical grip and 14.5” barrel: it is not “reduced”.
Further, it is not classed using the alternate “intended to be fired by the action of one hand” and thus a handgun (restricted) by definition as it would then be under Type; Handgun and there is no FRT entry for such. (There would be a separate record number for a different “Type” as, for example, there is for LMSR2/Omni Hybrid rifles and pistols.)
The Etro 7 with 14.5” barrel (all Etro shotguns are listed under the same FRT entry) would be FRT 140314-2 (Restricted) as it IS reduced to under 26” by folding. The balance of barrel lengths and styles are all non-restricted.
I trust this clarifies the classification of the Etro 8."
Based on this I contacted the dealer Bullseye Sports who was kind enough to access the FRT for me and sent me a copy.
The interesting part of this very educational exercise for me is the way that the Etro 7 is classified as restricted compared to the Etro 8 which is non-restricted.
Have a look at these images from the ATA factory site:
ATA Etro 7 http://www.ataarms.com/en/etro.php?modelID=45
ATA Etro 8 http://www.ataarms.com/en/etro.php?modelID=43
Clearly the Etro 7 is merely the same shotgun as the Etro 8, but equipped with an upwards folding buttstock bolted through a similar type of pistol grip. Because the Etro 7 OAL is REDUCED to less than 26" BY FOLDING, it is classified as restricted, but the Etro 8 with pistol grip which comes from the factory at about 25" OAL is non-restricted. ( I assume this is why the Mountie at the CFP told me not to modify it because the non-restricted status is directly linked to the "from the factory" OAL with the pistol grip).
I highly recommend keeping the appropriate paperwork on hand as it will be very useful in case of on site query by the officers of the law. I will keep a laminated copy in my saddle bag.
Here is the applicable part of the e-mail I received from them - I quote :
"There are two FRT references for the short Etro pump action shotgun. We imported the Etro 8 under FRT 140314-1 which is non-restricted. The gun is delivered from the factory in the configuration with the rear vertical grip and 14.5” barrel: it is not “reduced”.
Further, it is not classed using the alternate “intended to be fired by the action of one hand” and thus a handgun (restricted) by definition as it would then be under Type; Handgun and there is no FRT entry for such. (There would be a separate record number for a different “Type” as, for example, there is for LMSR2/Omni Hybrid rifles and pistols.)
The Etro 7 with 14.5” barrel (all Etro shotguns are listed under the same FRT entry) would be FRT 140314-2 (Restricted) as it IS reduced to under 26” by folding. The balance of barrel lengths and styles are all non-restricted.
I trust this clarifies the classification of the Etro 8."
Based on this I contacted the dealer Bullseye Sports who was kind enough to access the FRT for me and sent me a copy.
The interesting part of this very educational exercise for me is the way that the Etro 7 is classified as restricted compared to the Etro 8 which is non-restricted.
Have a look at these images from the ATA factory site:
ATA Etro 7 http://www.ataarms.com/en/etro.php?modelID=45
ATA Etro 8 http://www.ataarms.com/en/etro.php?modelID=43
Clearly the Etro 7 is merely the same shotgun as the Etro 8, but equipped with an upwards folding buttstock bolted through a similar type of pistol grip. Because the Etro 7 OAL is REDUCED to less than 26" BY FOLDING, it is classified as restricted, but the Etro 8 with pistol grip which comes from the factory at about 25" OAL is non-restricted. ( I assume this is why the Mountie at the CFP told me not to modify it because the non-restricted status is directly linked to the "from the factory" OAL with the pistol grip).
I highly recommend keeping the appropriate paperwork on hand as it will be very useful in case of on site query by the officers of the law. I will keep a laminated copy in my saddle bag.
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Well if this is true it's a major change of interpretation of the law from the RCMP.
That mean take any short barrel shotgun (12" or 14" barrel), if it came from factory with a pistol grip only it will still be unrestricted even if the OAL is less than 660mm.
It would be nice if you could post the printout of the FRT listing for all the Atra Etro shotguns.
That mean take any short barrel shotgun (12" or 14" barrel), if it came from factory with a pistol grip only it will still be unrestricted even if the OAL is less than 660mm.
It would be nice if you could post the printout of the FRT listing for all the Atra Etro shotguns.
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burnt_servo
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- right in the middle of b.c.
I glanced over the thread and a lot of big posts over something rather simple .
the dimensions given in the firearms act are the smallest dimensions that a person can cut down a pre-existing firearm or barrel down to .
a company or person who is a manufacturer can build from scratch a firearm and barrel shorter and have the rcmp classify it as nonrestricted .
the dimensions given in the firearms act are the smallest dimensions that a person can cut down a pre-existing firearm or barrel down to .
a company or person who is a manufacturer can build from scratch a firearm and barrel shorter and have the rcmp classify it as nonrestricted .
Well Dlask tried to do this a few years ago ,short pump shotgun with a pistol grip, Dlask sold it as nonrestricted, OAL was below 660mm, the RCMP said no, and Dlask had to sell them with a full stock on the gun to be more than 660mm OAL, with the pistol grip as an accessory.
Dlask Is a manufacturer.
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