What is unrestricted barrel lenth for 22's?

[Suther]

Overall length can be shorter than 26" if it came from the factory that way, and it is not a handgun. ie: mares leg

Or is made with bolt together "factory" parts. ie. T/C Contender carbine with 10" factory barrel and short factory forend, 23", non-restricted.

There is some contention with this one actually. Do you have an example of a T/C contender in such a configuration? And if so, have you talked to the CFO or anyone about the possibility that it might be restricted due to overall length?

There are multiple instances of short barreled shotguns with only pistol grips that are shorter than the minimum overall length of 660mm, and are restricted firearms.

It has been discussed many times here, and at least in respect to shotguns, they seem to call anything shorter than 660mm restricted. The Mare's leg always comes up in these discussions, and it usually gets written off as "We have no idea, but lets not push for an answer 'cause we dont want them to restrict that one too"

 

[elimsprint]

There is some contention with this one actually. Do you have an example of a T/C contender in such a configuration? And if so, have you talked to the CFO or anyone about the possibility that it might be restricted due to overall length?

There are multiple instances of short barreled shotguns with only pistol grips that are shorter than the minimum overall length of 660mm, and are restricted firearms.

It has been discussed many times here, and at least in respect to shotguns, they seem to call anything shorter than 660mm restricted. The Mare's leg always comes up in these discussions, and it usually gets written off as "We have no idea, but lets not push for an answer 'cause we dont want them to restrict that one too"

I was offered a 10" .357 T/C barrel I was going to use on my TC Contender carbine so I phoned the CFC and finally got hold of one of the "Techs" and he said that as long as I was using unmodified "factory" parts the gun did not fit the definition of Restricted and as such was Non-Restricted. Exactly like a mares leg. I didn't like the gun with that barrel on it so I didn't buy the barrel and didn't build the gun. It would have been 23" oal. In the shotguns you mention they had a "PISTOL-GRIP" and thus were "PISTOLS" in the eyes of the CFC. If they had had a shortened "factory" butt-stock like a mares leg they would be Non-Restricted, again, just like a mares leg. Pretty simple and yet so hard for so many to comprehend.

 

[RobertMcC]

Im going to call the CFC Monday and finally get an answer. There gotta be a written down min barrel length. Because if someone manufactures a 3" barrel for say a Savage 64 since you can change the barrel easy and if the stock still makes it over 26" I'm still they will get charged or something.

 

[Underthegun]

Im going to call the CFC Monday and finally get an answer. There gotta be a written down min barrel length. Because if someone manufactures a 3" barrel for say a Savage 64 since you can change the barrel easy and if the stock still makes it over 26" I'm still they will get charged or something.

Do you want them to change the regulations???? If not don't call. There is no sense in calling over hypothetical situations. Let's say that some one made a 3" barrel and put it on a savage 64 like you mention. They are still following the law. Sure a police officer might charge them, but then they will go to court and the judge will dismiss the case because the person was following the law as it is written.

 

[Tom E Gun]

There are multiple instances of short barreled shotguns with only pistol grips that are shorter than the minimum overall length of 660mm, and are restricted firearms.

You are correct, but there are also some that are NR. I have a recently purchased ATA Shotgun with a pistol grip and 14" barrel (24" o/a length) and it is non-restricted. The short barreled shotguns with PG are put into the Restricted category if they are considered a "handgun" not because of o/a length. I know it is very inconsistent, but it is true. See this thread: http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1311550-Non-Resticted-(-)-ATA-Etro-8-Shotgun-shortie

 

[elimsprint]

Im going to call the CFC Monday and finally get an answer. There gotta be a written down min barrel length. Because if someone manufactures a 3" barrel for say a Savage 64 since you can change the barrel easy and if the stock still makes it over 26" I'm still they will get charged or something.

You shouldn't get charged as the gun is 26" or over as you describe it. There are 2 problems with that scenario though and those are finding a "factory" made 3" barrel and the utter stupidity of having the fore-stock with your hand on it past the muzzle. The regs were posted above by fenceline and if it doesn't fit those then it is non-restricted unless the powers that be make exceptions. You can be sure all this is going to change what with Turdo and company in charge.

A better test would be to find a 10/22 factory stock that is less than 26" oal and doesn't get that way from folding, telescoping or otherwise and pair it with a short 10/22 barrel as there are factory made ones of those. Still stupid if it places your hand in front of the muzzle but at least a valid question.

Or maybe tell them you hear RIA is making a mares leg using their 10/22 clone action and a "factory" shortened stock and barrel, say 23"oal, and see if that would be restricted or not.

 

[dirtybarry]

Ruger 10/22's can be bought of the shelf with 16.12" barrels.

 

[Suther]

I was offered a 10" .357 T/C barrel I was going to use on my TC Contender carbine so I phoned the CFC and finally got hold of one of the "Techs" and he said that as long as I was using unmodified "factory" parts the gun did not fit the definition of Restricted and as such was Non-Restricted. Exactly like a mares leg. I didn't like the gun with that barrel on it so I didn't buy the barrel and didn't build the gun. It would have been 23" oal. In the shotguns you mention they had a "PISTOL-GRIP" and thus were "PISTOLS" in the eyes of the CFC. If they had had a shortened "factory" butt-stock like a mares leg they would be Non-Restricted, again, just like a mares leg. Pretty simple and yet so hard for so many to comprehend.

Do you have any proof they are registered as pistols? According to this guy, from another discussion on this very topic, with a restricted shotgun, its registered as a restricted shotgun.

It's a restricted shotgun because it is written so on the registration certificate, relevant or not that's a fact.

And yes the gun is factory made in this configuration.

.

So while you might think it is so easy to interpret the rules, I disagree. There is a clear and distinct difference between the way the law is written, and how it is being applied. Shotguns get restricted status, while the mares leg is completely NR (which is funny in its own right, because in the USA its even marketed/considered as a handgun) It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense...

Besides, if the pistol grip makes it into a handgun, why aren't all PG-only shotguns restricted? There is nothing in the law that says a shotgun with ### length barrel and a PG is a handgun, while a longer shotgun with a PG is not.

 

[ratherbefishin]

How can anybody determine whether a barrel has been cut or came from the factory that length?theoretically you could have two identical rifles side by side,one came from the factory,one was cut ,which was which? Seems to me You could buy a second hand rifle that someone had cut the barrel and not even know or tell...If you were checked,and charged with having a Restricted length barrel,how could you defend yourself?

 

[Odd Shot]

How can anybody determine whether a barrel has been cut or came from the factory that length?theoretically you could have two identical rifles side by side,one came from the factory,one was cut ,which was which?

They're talking about "sawed off", not manufactured or "gunsmithed"

 

[Suther]

How can anybody determine whether a barrel has been cut or came from the factory that length?theoretically you could have two identical rifles side by side,one came from the factory,one was cut ,which was which? Seems to me You could buy a second hand rifle that someone had cut the barrel and not even know or tell...If you were checked,and charged with having a Restricted length barrel,how could you defend yourself?

It shouldn't be too hard to tell, realistically. Most firearms only come in a few barrel lengths, so if it doesn't match a factory barrel length, that would start to raise questions.

If it had an after-market barrel installed, the seller would most likely be telling you that, because barrels are not cheap and most sellers would be trying to recoup at least some of their costs.

If you still are not sure, you can compare the crown on your barrel to a factory one. If its missing the blueing (assuming the factory version is blued) or doesn't have the same look (eg the factory had a recessed crown and this one doesn't) then that would raise some questions.

At the end of the day, you are the one responsible to make sure you are adhering to the law, so if you happen to be buying a long gun with a barrel under 18" you better make sure its a factory barrel, not a hacksaw job.

They're talking about "sawed off", not manufactured or "gunsmithed"

My understanding is even a gunsmith can't cut it shorter than 18". I could be wrong on that though...

 

[Tom E Gun]

Besides, if the pistol grip makes it into a handgun, why aren't all PG-only shotguns restricted? There is nothing in the law that says a shotgun with ### length barrel and a PG is a handgun, while a longer shotgun with a PG is not.

All I can tell you is that the FRT for my NR shotgun reads, in part:

"Notes...Canadian Law Comments - this firearm is normally Non-Restricted unless affected by the following conditions: 1) by combining a barrel from a licensed firearms manufacture that is less than 406mm (16.0") in length and a receiver/frame fitted with a pistol grip only, this firearm may be deemed a "handgun" and therefore "RESTRICTED" under the definition of "restricted firearm" in Part III/Firearms and Other Weapons of Section 84 (1) (a) of the Criminal Code of Canada.
-"handgun" means a firearm that is designed, altered or intended to be aimed and fired by the action of one hand, whether or not it has been redesigned or subsequently altered to be aimed and fired by the action of both hands."

Clear as mud right?

 

[Tom E Gun]

My understanding is even a gunsmith can't cut it shorter than 18". I could be wrong on that though...

That is correct, again from my FRT:
"Notes...Canadian Law Comments - this firearm is normally Non-Restricted unless affected by the following conditions: ... 3) by combining a barrel that has been altered to less than 457mm (18.0") in length by a non-licensed firearms manufacturer (cottage industry, individual or gunsmith) regardless of whether the shotgun has a pistol grip or conventional stock, this firearm is "PROHIBITED"..."

 

[Suther]

All I can tell you is that the FRT for my NR shotgun reads, in part:

"Notes...Canadian Law Comments - this firearm is normally Non-Restricted unless affected by the following conditions: 1) by combining a barrel from a licensed firearms manufacture that is less than 406mm (16.0") in length and a receiver/frame fitted with a pistol grip only, this firearm may be deemed a "handgun" and therefore "RESTRICTED" under the definition of "restricted firearm" in Part III/Firearms and Other Weapons of Section 84 (1) (a) of the Criminal Code of Canada.
-"handgun" means a firearm that is designed, altered or intended to be aimed and fired by the action of one hand, whether or not it has been redesigned or subsequently altered to be aimed and fired by the action of both hands."

Clear as mud right?

designed, altered, or intended to be aimed and fired by the action of one hand...

Unless you are the Hulk, a 12ga shotgun weighing like 4 pounds is not a 1-handed gun. Although I bet the Hulk couldn't get his meaty finger into the trigger guard...

“restricted firearm” means

(a) a handgun that is not a prohibited firearm, (check.)
(b) a firearm that
(i) is not a prohibited firearm, (check.)
(ii) has a barrel less than 470 mm in length, and (check.)
(iii) is capable of discharging centre-fire ammunition in a semi-automatic manner, (nope.)
(c) a firearm that is designed or adapted to be fired when reduced to a length of less than 660 mm by folding, telescoping or otherwise, or (it doesn't fold/telescope, so no?)
(d) a firearm of any other kind that is prescribed to be a restricted firearm; (Is this where the classification comes from then? Its restricted because they say so?)

 

[Tom E Gun]

I believe the RCMP are sticking the Restricted PG shotguns in category a) "a handgun that is not a prohibited firearm". I am told that the short (8" barrel) shotguns sold by Dlask and CanAm were originally NR even with a pistol grip, but then some time later the RCMP lab changed its mind and recategorized them as "handguns".

 

[Suther]

I believe the RCMP are sticking the Restricted PG shotguns in category a) "a handgun that is not a prohibited firearm". I am told that the short (8" barrel) shotguns sold by Dlask and CanAm were originally NR even with a pistol grip, but then some time later the RCMP lab changed its mind and recategorized them as "handguns".

I bet the guy who determined a 12ga shotgun can be reasonably used with 1 hand looks like this...

 

[red_bailey]

How can anybody determine whether a barrel has been cut or came from the factory that length?theoretically you could have two identical rifles side by side,one came from the factory,one was cut ,which was which?

This is the aim of the Firearms Reference Table: to compile a listing of every possible configuration of every possible firearm. Simple task, right?

Given that dedicated collectors who are experienced researchers often have trouble nailing down configurations even with access to factory records and other period documentation, it seems like a fool's errand to anybody with even a lick of sense.

FRT for my NR shotgun reads, in part:

by combining a barrel from a licensed firearms manufacturer that is less than 406mm (16.0") in length and a receiver/frame fitted with a pistol grip only, this firearm may be deemed a "handgun" and therefore "RESTRICTED" under the definition of "restricted firearm" in Part III/Firearms and Other Weapons of Section 84 (1) (a) of the Criminal Code of Canada.​

There is no basis in Law for their 406mm measurement; they even go on to quote the relevant part of the Criminal Code, which clearly does not support this hogwash.

 

[ratherbefishin]

Unless a barrel is stamped with a factory length,I suggest it's impossible to tell if it came that way if was cut to that length.Bluing missing on the crown is no guide as its not illegal to recrown a rifle,factory length or not.Frankly making a difernce in whether a barrel was cut or came from the factory is rediculous and I seriously wonder if it would survive a court challange as there is no definitive way to determine it*and I would think the onus is on is the crown to prove a charge.Minimum overall length on the other hand is as easy to determine by a tape measure
* I have two identical Norinco JW 15 rifles,purchased used.Both appear to have come from the factory untouched.One had a 13'' barrel and the other a 24'' barrel.If someone cut the 24'' barrel to 13'' to match the 'shorty',who could tell if it came that way or was cut?

 

[Tom E Gun]

How difficult would it be to contact a firearms manufacturer and ask them to provide a list of all the exact barrel lengths that they have made for a specific model?

Then sometimes it is really obvious that a barrel has been cut:

 

[ratherbefishin]

Has there been any actual charges laid for bring in possession of a non factory length barrel that was actually identical to a factory length barrel? I find the issue lacking in rationale where two identical rifles can be classed as diferent