I thought SKS production only ran until 1956? I just saw one on the EE claiming 1958 production? Does this seem legit, or what? Did they continue small batches of production of the SKS in 57/58, while they ramped up AK-47 production, or did SKS production cease in 56 when the AK was introduced?
1958 production SKS?
- Thread starter Suther
- Start date
There was a document that was discovered that explained the letter prefix and their meaning from that time period for Makarovs -- or something like that. It correlated with the SKS.
The features of the letter block series also change as the letter changes, so them being different years of production make sense. The one for sale has a replacement 1960s-1970s stock.
The features of the letter block series also change as the letter changes, so them being different years of production make sense. The one for sale has a replacement 1960s-1970s stock.
Okay, I was under the impression that all rifles manufactured without the date on the dust cover were either late 55, or 56 production. Now I guess I need to go check what year mine is, its one of these "letter dated" rifles I've never heard about until just now...
It is a theory based on some documentation of the letter codes "Д" = "D" in English, "И" = "I" in English and "K" = "K" in English for the Makarov pistols, and the documentation seems to correspond to Д = 1956, И = 1957 and K= 1958.
However no documentation or source for the Russian SKS to confirm this theory has been confirmed. However there is enough there to say that they could possibly have been made during those dates. The Russians gave their tooling to the Chinese in 1956 for the SKS's, but we can't say for sure whether all the tooling was given or whether these "Letter guns" were made at the Tula plant other Russian factories from parts already made or left over from previous production. Many people also indicate that the star on the receiver of the letter guns stands for the Tula plant but we don't know that for sure.
The letter guns are thought to be late production parts guns made from the left over SKS parts production, but other than the fact that the date and Tula stamp were left off the receiver covers late in '55 it would then have to be assumed they were made at least in '56 with the possibility they continued to make them from parts possibly at other factories till possibly '58 going by that possible Letter = Date numbering system for the Makarov pistols. So it basically depends on what theory you prescribe to at this point. It may in time be confirmed or discounted in time if more concrete evidence comes to light.
That may not necessarily be a Russian/Soviet made receiver, either. SKS production was continued in places like Yugoslavia, East Germany, Albania (super-rare!!) long after 1956. Also, it could be a mixed-parts guns built by an armorer after production officially stopped in the Soviet Union. Without photos it's pretty hard to tell. OP, any chance of some pics?
What makes you say its a 1960s-70s stock? I was under the impression they started using the laminate stocks in late model production, somewhere around 1955. They were also common to be used on refurbished rifles.
Don't the non-russian SKS have obvious features that make it easy to distinguish Russian from another? Like the Chinese have lighter colored stocks, and the Yugos were built with the intention of firing rifle grenades?
My serial has a backwards N, and everything except the handguard and rear sight leaf are numbers matching (These two parts are force matched). Even the stock has the correct serial, with no second serial covered in ######...
There are two distinct types of laminate stocks that were used on the SKS. The original as issued stock for K series rifles is very dark, with an unspectacular grain/pattern. You can barely tell it's a laminate stock.
The nicer looking, more clearly laminated stocks which are much lighter are replacements for a large refurbishment program.
The Yugo/Albanian SKS has differences that make it distinct from the Russian SKS. This one is a well known Russian Letter Gun. The East German SKS was recently debunked (within the last year or so) the /1\ stamp being now identified as a Russian arsenal (1871st ABV Moscow Military District located in Liski) and not a DDR marking. Guys in the US were pretty choked as the "Ex DDR" SKS's that they had paid so much for weren't worth any or much more than a regular one.
howiebearse
Member
- Location
- Cape Cod Massachusetts USA
The letters were also used for a few years on Soviet 7.62x39 ammunition . My guess is that sks production may have ceased in 56 with the letter codes possibly being rebuilt guns which were done out of the factories by smaller shops. The ak was in full production and with quantities on hand of sks carbines there was no need for more production. The Chinese received machinery supposedly from Izhevesk and tons of spare parts in 1956 there is a chart of rebuilt stamps found on sks carbines rebuilt in various plants like triangle 1 which was once thought to be East German proof which is actually 1871st ABV Moscow Military district Liski. Keep in mind many of the Russian sks carbines that were rebuilt were scrubbed in some manner usually top covers but just the serial number then were stamped to match the serial number on the receiver. This has been found on several guns by me in my handling of Russian guns. If you find a Izhevesk 53 dated cover and its on a 56 tula with small star after serial number you look at the serial numbers and they match you know it was scrubbed and restamped. Also looking at the prefix letters you can tell some just do not belong to the year on the top cover. But this is just my thoughts on it based on experience there is nothing in writing on it.
Yup sounds reasonable, I guess we will have to continue to wait and see if more evidence comes to light with regard to these Letter guns.
gewehr76
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
AK47 was never designed to replace SKS45.
Each had its own role in the soviet army. After 1954 they stopped dating these rifles and used letters to indicate production batch of these rifles. Why? partly due to cold war and partly due to the reasons that in some years they didn't make any. So it may be some are produced well in to 60's as SKS was used by second tier troops and was not used as much as AK's so they lasted longer. It may as well be that when they switched to 5.45 cal they stopped production of SKS as it made no cense to continue with them.
Guessing game at this point.
Each had its own role in the soviet army. After 1954 they stopped dating these rifles and used letters to indicate production batch of these rifles. Why? partly due to cold war and partly due to the reasons that in some years they didn't make any. So it may be some are produced well in to 60's as SKS was used by second tier troops and was not used as much as AK's so they lasted longer. It may as well be that when they switched to 5.45 cal they stopped production of SKS as it made no cense to continue with them.
Guessing game at this point.
PinkyPlinker
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kenora, ON
I can say for sure they were still stamping dates in 1955 Tula. I have one, no letter, stamped like a 54. So D (flatty A) starting 56 continues to make sense.
Yes, there are a few with 1955 stamped on them, it took me a while to get mine, but I understand that the letter series SKS are commonly
known as 1955-56 production, with more being assembled - possibly - in later years from parts.
PinkyPlinker
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kenora, ON
It's really all speculation on what was happening in that period. I don't believe the 55-56 theory as commonly found in various sources. From what I've seen and read I believe they simplified the stamping in 56 to adopt the nomenclature of other factories using letters to represent the year. Add the star to the receiver as well and eliminate the need to stamp the top cover.
Many things are possible. We know tooling was sold to China. Did the Iz tooling go? Did Tula keep manufacturing? It appears so. If you believe they adopted the letter date code it would infer that Tula was producing guns through 1958. A might longer than a parts production would last I would think.
Many things are possible. We know tooling was sold to China. Did the Iz tooling go? Did Tula keep manufacturing? It appears so. If you believe they adopted the letter date code it would infer that Tula was producing guns through 1958. A might longer than a parts production would last I would think.
If you think USSR sold all tools to China you don't feel what USSR was in reality. Even SVT-40 tools were put into "strategic storage" in 1945. I suspect they are still there in Russia. Until 1990x ex USSR amry storage facilities in Ukraine had tons of WW1 weapon properly preserved in grease and ready to be used, it was sold at scrap prices in 1990x mostly to German milsurplus dealers. Still some nice specimens can found. USSR did not scrap anything after the WW2.... you know, just in case with war with "evil capitalists" they would have needed to have AK for the army, SKS for the rear echelon units, SVTs for militia, MNs for partisans, Lebels and Madson MGs to arm polar bears to help "to liberate" Canada and so on.
It looks like letter series SKSs were kind of "additional" runs of production and as a proof of that - they were using both old stock parts (you can find both wood and laminate stocks) and newly manufactured parts. At the time of production they just followed year naming scheme that was already in place with cartridges and some other small arms. Take for example PM (Makarov pistol) - year was stamped up until 1955, then in 1956 they stopped stamping year and used suffix Д, and so on -
Д-----1956
И-----1957
К-----1958
Л-----1959
М-----1960, this year pistols could have either 1960 date or M suffix, but not both
----1961, this year pistols could have only 1961 date, no suffix was used
----1962, this year pistols could have only 1961 date, no suffix was used
----1963, this year pistols could have only 1961 date, no suffix was used
Р-----1964 this year pistols could have either 1964 date or Р suffix, but not both
Reasons behind using or not using such dating scheme is not know AFAIR, however information above is based on quite solid studies of cartridges and firearms and I have no reason to doubt it. This is the best information we have as for now. While with the theory that all letter series SKSs were made in 1956 all we have is "it's just because 1956 last year of production".
It looks like letter series SKSs were kind of "additional" runs of production and as a proof of that - they were using both old stock parts (you can find both wood and laminate stocks) and newly manufactured parts. At the time of production they just followed year naming scheme that was already in place with cartridges and some other small arms. Take for example PM (Makarov pistol) - year was stamped up until 1955, then in 1956 they stopped stamping year and used suffix Д, and so on -
Д-----1956
И-----1957
К-----1958
Л-----1959
М-----1960, this year pistols could have either 1960 date or M suffix, but not both
----1961, this year pistols could have only 1961 date, no suffix was used
----1962, this year pistols could have only 1961 date, no suffix was used
----1963, this year pistols could have only 1961 date, no suffix was used
Р-----1964 this year pistols could have either 1964 date or Р suffix, but not both
Reasons behind using or not using such dating scheme is not know AFAIR, however information above is based on quite solid studies of cartridges and firearms and I have no reason to doubt it. This is the best information we have as for now. While with the theory that all letter series SKSs were made in 1956 all we have is "it's just because 1956 last year of production".
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PinkyPlinker
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kenora, ON
That's the spirit!Now I am going to have to expand my Russian SKS collection from a goal of 10 rifles ('49 to '56-Tula, '53,'54-Iz) to a new goal of 12 rifles!
