Time to Legalize High Fence Hunting in Manitoba??

Every animal is affected by winter deep snow and cold weather is just as hard on moose as it is on deer its just the moose carry a lot more personal resources

Moose are browsers, deer are not, unless driven to do so by extreme winter. There's really no such thing as "winter kill" with moose, unless it's tick related or in some areas hot summers can cause them to not build up enough reserve for winter, as they don't feed but rather rest in the shade. They have little issue with deep snow, at least not MB deep snow. Certainly extreme winters affect them somewhat, but not nearly to the extent of deer where it can basically wipe them out..
 
Moose are browsers, deer are not, unless driven to do so by extreme winter. There's really no such thing as "winter kill" with moose, unless it's tick related or in some areas hot summers can cause them to not build up enough reserve for winter, as they don't feed but rather rest in the shade. They have little issue with deep snow, at least not MB deep snow. Certainly extreme winters affect them somewhat, but not nearly to the extent of deer where it can basically wipe them out..


The biggest problem with a "harsh" winter is deep snow. Which results in high levels of predation by wolves. Wolves move through or on deeper snow that deer, or moose. One warm spell during a winter can create a crust the wolves and coyotes can run on like a bare parking lot, but the deer and moose cannot.

I have watched wolves take down a cow and her calf/yearling in February without mush issue in 4-5' of snow. It wasn't very difficult for them, and I could see them preying on moose or deer as much as they want. I have found carcasses that were only fed on once, and the wolves never returned due to making other kills.


In a harsh winter I always tip several Cedar trees when I am in the bush for browse for the deer.
 
There are no "same rules" and there never will be. Conservation has priority, then Aboriginal Rights and then the rest of Canadians. But there has to be effective management within these guidelines and I don't believe there will be until both parties are fully on board. I say "both parties" with some sadness as I think the enshrining of one party's rights in the Charter just pushes a wedge between us all.

Consider this case:
http://canlii.ca/t/2c70m

It is interesting to read the perspectives and while the matter was decided against the aboriginal perspectives claimed when the appeal was heard, it does, imo, point towards the direction we are heading. Which is not so good.
I agree. The issue is that we all need to make this about conservation of the species, not special interest groups, regardless of who they may be.

Interesting read here as well: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbpc/doc/2009/2009canlii630/2009canlii630.html?resultIndex=1

I really wish conservation would have priority.
 
Protecting our wildlife for future generations is all that matters, well, not all, one people/one law would be nice, but the Canadian government is heading in the opposite direction.
 
The biggest problem with a "harsh" winter is deep snow. Which results in high levels of predation by wolves. Wolves move through or on deeper snow that deer, or moose. One warm spell during a winter can create a crust the wolves and coyotes can run on like a bare parking lot, but the deer and moose cannot.

I have watched wolves take down a cow and her calf/yearling in February without mush issue in 4-5' of snow. It wasn't very difficult for them, and I could see them preying on moose or deer as much as they want. I have found carcasses that were only fed on once, and the wolves never returned due to making other kills.


In a harsh winter I always tip several Cedar trees when I am in the bush for browse for the deer.

Thats'a an amicable thing to do, but my understanding is deer don't really like cedar, they only eat them when there's nothing else left. I've seen the browse line in Michigan's UP, they eat the bark right off the trees.

As for wolves, I firmly believe their attempt/kill ratio is nearly 100% in winter, at least for a pack. The only escape moose find is in open water, which is never present in Feb. regardless of a winter's severity. In contrast to them killing for sport, I've personally seen them devour a complete cow moose in under 24 hours. I got a black one and a tan one from that pack. But then again, we don't have the moose population that makes "killing for fun" common, which brings us back to the topic at hand. :)
 
This is your problem right here.

This was investigated and found to be a legal exercise if metis rights but it ain't right. The fact is FN rights were grounded in the belief that each head of family would hunt for their family. That has not been the practice. Instead a couple of hunters are taking entire herds for the community. That was OK 1000 years ago but today it is destroying the gene pool. Diversity is disappearing and the species is recovering at smaller rates.
 
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This is your problem right here.

This was investigated and found to be a legal exercise if metis rights but it ain't right. The fact is FN rights were grounded in the belief that each head of family would hunt for their family. That has not been the practice. Instead a couple of hunters are taking entire herds for the community. That was OK 1000 years ago but today it is destroying the gene pool. Diversity is disappearing and the species is recovering at smaller rates.

I see they were shot with bow and arrow and pulled out with horses too! Oh wait, they're using their traditional Ford wagon. Seeing pictures like this makes me a little sad for the human race. Idle No More....ffs. :mad:
 
Protecting our wildlife for future generations is all that matters, well, not all, one people/one law would be nice, but the Canadian government is heading in the opposite direction.

You just noticing this now?
I thought it started with PET back in the 70's?
To the OP, have you made a case to your MNR people's or did you post in frustration about lack of opportunity in your Province?
Fenced hunts are not the answer to Conservation and Managment ( in my opinion ).
Rob
 
I personally know non-aboriginals that have harvested over 30 moose per person in a single season, I also know others, again non-aboriginal, that shot over 60 deer in a season. Each. This is not only immoral, but illegal. It's not just "the Metis", it's people of every race that do dumb sh!t. It would be appreciated if some of you would wake up and realize you aren't some superior group or race.

Focusing on protecting our wildlife is much more important than pointing fingers at each other.

Rob, everyone knows our government is retarded when it comes to natural resources and social issues, especially since Turdeau senior.
 
If I had it my way these are some of the changes I would make to how Manitoba Conservation conducts their operations:

1) Fire everyone who does not agree to or cannot meet the new set of goals and targets regarding game population numbers, age structure and quality, hunter success rates, etc. The mandate will now be to provide a 90% chance of harvesting a mature animal 4 years old or older, either ###, in 4 full days of hunting to each licensed hunter and from any of the available species that currently inhabit the province without causing any long term declines in the numbers of any of the species.
2) Add a 25% tax onto the sale of each tag and the sale of each fishing license. Use the funds generated to exclusively fund habitat acquisitions and strategic initiatives. The current $5 enhancement fund fee is inadequate and generates about $500,000 annually, and only a small portion of this goes directly to habitat.
3) Survey aerially each wildlife management zone as well as wildlife management areas within each zone which are set aside by the province to provide habitat. Note game population numbers, age and ### to establish density and other demographic characteristics each and every year. The survey does not have to be comprehensive, however it must take place.
4) Provide incentives for landowners who agree to maintain at least 320 acres of productive habitat for wildlife. Such incentives will include landowner only tags which are transferable or salable if they should so choose. Tags for elk and moose will be available for landowners who provide at least 1280 acres of suitable habitat and can prove a population of animals. Everyone else will be on a draw system for each species unless they donate $500 to the wildlife enhancement fund, in which case they will have priority of zone or area.
5) Landowners who claim damages from wildlife will have an opportunity to work with a hunter directly to compensate for the damages in exchange for the opportunity to hunt the animals responsible so long as all other measures have been taken by the landowner to prevent such damages. The landowner is expected to prove damages prior to having the opportunity to work with a hunter to control the problem. The current practice of landowners taking care of the problem themselves will be frowned upon and investigated. However in some cases there may be no other rational option.
6) All hunters who purchase game tags or licenses will be required to fill out a post season survey and such individuals who refuse will be refused hunting or fishing licenses next season. This will allow a more thorough understanding of hunter harvest success rates, and other valuable information like age and health of the animals.
7) Individuals involved in vehicle insurance claims with wildlife will be assessed a penalty fee depending on what they killed. A $500 fee will be assessed for a moose or elk, $250 for deer, smaller animals as to be determined. This would drastically reduce the collision rate as many users of the road begin to adjust their speed and driving habits to avoid collisions with wildlife. Fixing cars is a costly business in both human lives and insurance premiums. Both can easily be reduced by making drivers responsible for their own driving choices. In many cases dropping your highway cruising speed 15kmph during certain times and in certain areas is sufficient to avoid collisions with wildlife.
8) All 83 Wildlife Management Areas encompassing a total area 2 million acres will be fenced, monitored, managed and studied intensively. In each of these 83 areas, a seasoned hunter or other knowledgeable person will be appointed, and responsible to manage hunter relations in such areas as well as maintain statistics and take samples from animals harvested from these zones, which will be tested for CWD & bovine TB or other diseases such as rabies (the most deadly disease currently know to humans). Genetic diversity issues such as gene flow and genetic drift will be addressed through transfer and exchange of selected animals to new locations after disease testing and careful thought. This is very similar to and modeled after the 80 year old PFRA pasture system currently in Saskatchewan and Manitoba used by cattle producers. In addition to protecting the investment, the fencing will prevent animal - vehicle collisions, saving many human lives. It will also make disease monitoring and treatment much easier and assure that herds are maintained at carrying capacity limits to provide max hunting opportunities. All ecosystems seek to establish max carrying capacity limits, however, left to their own devices, populations crashes occasionally occur, giving rise to cycles. Such management efforts will seek to remove these occurrences.
9) All bears shot will be reported to the department and the gall bladders will be forfeited to the department where they will be sold directly to Asian markets. The money raised from such sale will be used to prevent poaching, enforce chosen laws, improve habitat quality and the quality and quantity of game. 3,500 bears x $1000-$5000/gall bladder = 3.5 million - 17.5 million that we currently throw away like idiots.
10) All previously seized antlers including trophy sets, furs, and animals parts will be sold on the open market and such funds generated will be reinvested into wildlife related initiatives including research to prevent and control diseases like Chronic wasting disease, bovine tuberculosis, and rabies, which may include inoculation or ingestion of antivirals through feed.
11) Tags and bag limits available to hunters will be available based on how many animals can be harvested without causing a decrease in numbers. Generally no more than 10% of a herd can be harvested without some declines, however, intensively managed herds can see higher rates of harvest. Eventually when game numbers increase to carrying capacity levels, the max tag output opportunity will have been reached. Until such time a draw will have to suffice.

Because Manitoba currently has 90% crown land there will be more than enough areas to freely hunt. This will not change. But the above mentioned initiatives will directly contribute over 100 million dollars in funds to be invested back into wildlife protection and conservation. Roughly 2/3 of the current 2015 budget of Manitoba Conservation and Water Stewardship and more than 25 million dollars more than what hunters and fisherman contribute annually in all of Ontario.
 
I personally know non-aboriginals that have harvested over 30 moose per person in a single season, I also know others, again non-aboriginal, that shot over 60 deer in a season. Each. This is not only immoral, but illegal. It's not just "the Metis", it's people of every race that do dumb sh!t. It would be appreciated if some of you would wake up and realize you aren't some superior group or race.

Focusing on protecting our wildlife is much more important than pointing fingers at each other.

Rob, everyone knows our government is retarded when it comes to natural resources and social issues, especially since Turdeau senior.
You've been witness to illegal hunting? Did you report it? If not, why not?
 
I personally know non-aboriginals that have harvested over 30 moose per person in a single season, I also know others, again non-aboriginal, that shot over 60 deer in a season. Each. This is not only immoral, but illegal. It's not just "the Metis", it's people of every race that do dumb sh!t. It would be appreciated if some of you would wake up and realize you aren't some superior group or race.

Focusing on protecting our wildlife is much more important than pointing fingers at each other.

Rob, everyone knows our government is retarded when it comes to natural resources and social issues, especially since Turdeau senior.

Are there non-aboriginal people that poach? Of course! People break the law everyday. Just because someone has a different skin color does not mean that they can't become a criminal. However, can you really say that poachers are affecting the wildlife population more than the aboriginal populations are? I don't really see it as comparable.
 
I personally know non-aboriginals that have harvested over 30 moose per person in a single season, I also know others, again non-aboriginal, that shot over 60 deer in a season. Each. This is not only immoral, but illegal. It's not just "the Metis", it's people of every race that do dumb sh!t. It would be appreciated if some of you would wake up and realize you aren't some superior group or race.

Focusing on protecting our wildlife is much more important than pointing fingers at each other.

Rob, everyone knows our government is retarded when it comes to natural resources and social issues, especially since Turdeau senior.

Yeah, they are called poachers and if reported are unlikely to ever get to hunt ever again. The guys in the pic above are doing it every year and laughing it up on Facebook. My grannies native and she taught me call thus noise about respect for the animal and taking onltbtge minimum you need and consuming it completely.
 
If I had it my way these are some of the changes I would make to how Manitoba Conservation conducts their operations:

1) Fire everyone who does not agree to or cannot meet the new set of goals and targets regarding game population numbers, age structure and quality, hunter success rates, etc. The mandate will now be to provide a 90% chance of harvesting a mature animal 4 years old or older, either ###, in 4 full days of hunting to each licensed hunter and from any of the available species that currently inhabit the province without causing any long term declines in the numbers of any of the species.
2) Add a 25% tax onto the sale of each tag and the sale of each fishing license. Use the funds generated to exclusively fund habitat acquisitions and strategic initiatives. The current $5 enhancement fund fee is inadequate and generates about $500,000 annually, and only a small portion of this goes directly to habitat.
3) Survey aerially each wildlife management zone as well as wildlife management areas within each zone which are set aside by the province to provide habitat. Note game population numbers, age and ### to establish density and other demographic characteristics each and every year. The survey does not have to be comprehensive, however it must take place.
4) Provide incentives for landowners who agree to maintain at least 320 acres of productive habitat for wildlife. Such incentives will include landowner only tags which are transferable or salable if they should so choose. Tags for elk and moose will be available for landowners who provide at least 1280 acres of suitable habitat and can prove a population of animals. Everyone else will be on a draw system for each species unless they donate $500 to the wildlife enhancement fund, in which case they will have priority of zone or area.
5) Landowners who claim damages from wildlife will have an opportunity to work with a hunter directly to compensate for the damages in exchange for the opportunity to hunt the animals responsible so long as all other measures have been taken by the landowner to prevent such damages. The landowner is expected to prove damages prior to having the opportunity to work with a hunter to control the problem. The current practice of landowners taking care of the problem themselves will be frowned upon and investigated. However in some cases there may be no other rational option.
6) All hunters who purchase game tags or licenses will be required to fill out a post season survey and such individuals who refuse will be refused hunting or fishing licenses next season. This will allow a more thorough understanding of hunter harvest success rates, and other valuable information like age and health of the animals.
7) Individuals involved in vehicle insurance claims with wildlife will be assessed a penalty fee depending on what they killed. A $500 fee will be assessed for a moose or elk, $250 for deer, smaller animals as to be determined. This would drastically reduce the collision rate as many users of the road begin to adjust their speed and driving habits to avoid collisions with wildlife. Fixing cars is a costly business in both human lives and insurance premiums. Both can easily be reduced by making drivers responsible for their own driving choices. In many cases dropping your highway cruising speed 15kmph during certain times and in certain areas is sufficient to avoid collisions with wildlife.
8) All 83 Wildlife Management Areas encompassing a total area 2 million acres will be fenced, monitored, managed and studied intensively. In each of these 83 areas, a seasoned hunter or other knowledgeable person will be appointed, and responsible to manage hunter relations in such areas as well as maintain statistics and take samples from animals harvested from these zones, which will be tested for CWD & bovine TB or other diseases such as rabies (the most deadly disease currently know to humans). Genetic diversity issues such as gene flow and genetic drift will be addressed through transfer and exchange of selected animals to new locations after disease testing and careful thought. This is very similar to and modeled after the 80 year old PFRA pasture system currently in Saskatchewan and Manitoba used by cattle producers. In addition to protecting the investment, the fencing will prevent animal - vehicle collisions, saving many human lives. It will also make disease monitoring and treatment much easier and assure that herds are maintained at carrying capacity limits to provide max hunting opportunities. All ecosystems seek to establish max carrying capacity limits, however, left to their own devices, populations crashes occasionally occur, giving rise to cycles. Such management efforts will seek to remove these occurrences.
9) All bears shot will be reported to the department and the gall bladders will be forfeited to the department where they will be sold directly to Asian markets. The money raised from such sale will be used to prevent poaching, enforce chosen laws, improve habitat quality and the quality and quantity of game. 3,500 bears x $1000-$5000/gall bladder = 3.5 million - 17.5 million that we currently throw away like idiots.
10) All previously seized antlers including trophy sets, furs, and animals parts will be sold on the open market and such funds generated will be reinvested into wildlife related initiatives including research to prevent and control diseases like Chronic wasting disease, bovine tuberculosis, and rabies, which may include inoculation or ingestion of antivirals through feed.
11) Tags and bag limits available to hunters will be available based on how many animals can be harvested without causing a decrease in numbers. Generally no more than 10% of a herd can be harvested without some declines, however, intensively managed herds can see higher rates of harvest. Eventually when game numbers increase to carrying capacity levels, the max tag output opportunity will have been reached. Until such time a draw will have to suffice.

Because Manitoba currently has 90% crown land there will be more than enough areas to freely hunt. This will not change. But the above mentioned initiatives will directly contribute over 100 million dollars in funds to be invested back into wildlife protection and conservation. Roughly 2/3 of the current 2015 budget of Manitoba Conservation and Water Stewardship and more than 25 million dollars more than what hunters and fisherman contribute annually in all of Ontario.

Its obvious you live in Saskatchewan but it remains to be seen why you comment on Manitoba hunting

1) You Can not fire people because they disagree with your goals, I maintain it is unwise to fire people who disagree how else can you get different perspectives

2) While I would agree to a fee hike I think it should go to hiring more management and enforcement offers, there are so few on the ground that poachers simply do not fear being discovered

3) A comprehensive survey of every inch of Manitoba for nomadic animals is way to expensive and time consuming, perhaps a 4 or 5 year rotating survey

4) There are already land owner tags and farmers maintain all the wild life areas they can and don't need incentives to do so, Next you suggest we switch hunting to an elitist sport where money buys access and poor people can go pound sand, No thanks

5) another unneeded solution to a non-existent problem, you wish to commercialize wild animals which is not acceptable to most Manitobans

6) Your solution is to mandate a survey that already exists but is voluntary, while it would make compliance higher it would never guarantee 100% compliance just ask the census people

7) This is just asinine, not a single person intentionally encounters wild life with their vehicle

8) We don't want to turn the whole province into a fenced compound besides with the southern grid road system how do you propose to retain the animals in their designated animals, the reason PFRA worked is because it was conducted on domesticated and owned animals. Wild animals belong to the people of Manitoba and that is the way we want it. Testing for disease is already being conducted in areas where there is evidence of need.

9) the legal sale of gall bladders will only encourage the illegal sale of gall baldders, as it is posesion of any gall bladder is illegal so there is simply no wiggle room

10) Again a solution in search of a problem

11) The herds are already managed enough, since no one can predict predation and winter kill management has to be done on a long term basis and not on a year over year basis. 5 years ago there were dear everywhere, 2 bad winters and the situation had reversed and no amount of intense management could have changed that
 
Razorbeck,
I used to live in Manitoba, and currently own 470 acres of habitat there. A significant private investment in conservation I'm sure so few Manitoban's have done. The property was bought specifically to protect as habitat. My goals are to to attract, retain and improve both the quality of the land and the quality and quantity of wildlife. Since I have obligations to work for a living I have chosen to relocate to Saskatchewan where I also own property. Since I no longer live in Manitoba I have lost landowner privileges even though my trail cams prove the property to hold and produce deer and elk I am not eligible for a draw like other Manitoban's, even those who have no vested interest in conservation.

My property has no less than 8 white tail deer bucks in varying ages from yearlings to a 140 class 3.5 yr old and a 160 class 4.5 year old. There is also a small herd of elk that uses parts of the property and my neighbors as well. Bears and coyotes also benefit from my investment. Grouse, rabbits and marten have been seen as well along with many other furbearers.

Since you seem to think the province is doing okay I'm assuming you haven't invested anything into conservation other than a $40 tag? I on the other hand am the real deal. One of the few people who has put my money where my mouth is and taken matters upon myself as my goverment clearly cannot meet my wildlife management expectations. Oh and no I don't shoot does. Its poor management. Won't shoot any bucks you ger than 3.5 either. Other than that can't say we're all that different. Some of us hunt, while others conserve and protect so we can hunt.
 
Razorbeck,
I used to live in Manitoba, and currently own 470 acres of habitat there. A significant private investment in conservation I'm sure so few Manitoban's have done. The property was bought specifically to protect as habitat. My goals are to to attract, retain and improve both the quality of the land and the quality and quantity of wildlife. Since I have obligations to work for a living I have chosen to relocate to Saskatchewan where I also own property. Since I no longer live in Manitoba I have lost landowner privileges even though my trail cams prove the property to hold and produce deer and elk I am not eligible for a draw like other Manitoban's, even those who have no vested interest in conservation.

My property has no less than 8 white tail deer bucks in varying ages from yearlings to a 140 class 3.5 yr old and a 160 class 4.5 year old. There is also a small herd of elk that uses parts of the property and my neighbors as well. Bears and coyotes also benefit from my investment. Grouse, rabbits and marten have been seen as well along with many other furbearers.

Since you seem to think the province is doing okay I'm assuming you haven't invested anything into conservation other than a $40 tag? I on the other hand am the real deal. One of the few people who has put my money where my mouth is and taken matters upon myself as my goverment clearly cannot meet my wildlife management expectations. Oh and no I don't shoot does. Its poor management. Won't shoot any bucks you ger than 3.5 either. Other than that can't say we're all that different. Some of us hunt, while others conserve and protect so we can hunt.

OOOOH 3/4's of a section you are a major land owner, that does make you an expert worth listening to, when did you buy it? back when it would have cost you less then 50k. Still would cost you less then 50k depending on location. That obviously gives you the right to demand the commercializing of the wild life

Manitoba needs high fence hunting as badly as we need Blue Tongue Disease
 
I personally know non-aboriginals that have harvested over 30 moose per person in a single season, I also know others, again non-aboriginal, that shot over 60 deer in a season. Each. This is not only immoral, but illegal. It's not just "the Metis", it's people of every race that do dumb sh!t. It would be appreciated if some of you would wake up and realize you aren't some superior group or race.

So you would agree then that's its equally immoral for metis and first nations who do this, considering it's actually a legal practice for them? Then I'd suggest the system needs to change. Why not hand out one tag, when that tag is used, you pick up another after providing proof of the first one's use, but you never have more than one at a time. It would eliminate the multiples being shot, which is actually a big problem with elk in MB as they're herd animals.

As for the farmers who call in the hunters to eliminate elk off their land, they should get heavy fines as well. If they're too lazy or unorganized to haul their hay bales home in a timely manner, expect elk to eat them. The food is on their turf.
 
Good points and not a bad idea. Good luck getting the government on board, let alone those with rights. There are many with rights that think like we do, but try taking away that freedom and see how that goes. If us firearm owners fought as hard and unified we might have more freedoms as well.

The people, all people, with an interest in protecting the wildlife, would benefit from banding together and going toe to toe with the government to address these issues. The funny thing is, people that do not hunt or trap or fish, have a huge interest in saving Canada's wildlife as well, they just don't realize how important it is. Hunting and proper management is critical to preserving that wildlife as well.
 
So you would agree then that's its equally immoral for metis and first nations who do this, considering it's actually a legal practice for them? Then I'd suggest the system needs to change. Why not hand out one tag, when that tag is used, you pick up another after providing proof of the first one's use, but you never have more than one at a time. It would eliminate the multiples being shot, which is actually a big problem with elk in MB as they're herd animals.

As for the farmers who call in the hunters to eliminate elk off their land, they should get heavy fines as well. If they're too lazy or unorganized to haul their hay bales home in a timely manner, expect elk to eat them. The food is on their turf.

Why not fine all landowners who allow any hunting on their land? That should be ever better.
 
Why not fine all landowners who allow any hunting on their land? That should be ever better.

Haha That's a great idea! If I wasn't such a dedicated conservationist I would work for Manitoba Conservation and implement your idea to fine landowners who allow hunting on their land. After all isn't wildlife a public resource which belongs to the people? Why would we let a private individual benefit after buying the land, protecting it, and then hunting one of the many animals that hard working citizen helped nurture to maturity.

Think it's time for nursary rymes everyone...let's start with "The Little Red Hen"

As for you "razorbeck" I couldn't help but chuckle when you responded negatively to my mandate to fire members of conservation that can't meet my targets and goals you said "you can not fire people who disagree with your goals..."etc. I find it ironic that on your profile your "occupation" says "firing people".

I also smiled when I read in the "interests" section of your profile "shooting things". Can't help but point out you won't be "shooting things" on my land or anyone else's after mocking my investment in conservation. You can re-read your post you'll know what I mean. Instead of commending me on helping our cause you mocked my involvement in conservation. Like to see you throw down well over 100k and resist the temptation to log my forest and plow my meadows or graze 100 cattle.

You are a case in point why hunters are in the position we're in.
 
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