Looking at refinishing my Double Barrel ( Bluing )

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UrbanElite

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Hello Everyone,

I bought an older Double Barrel Shotgun for a great deal the other day. Overall it is in decent condition. Stock and fore grip are uncracked, but will be needing to be refinished. Bores on the barrel are in "decent" shape, not major pitting or problems that would make it unsafe to shoot. All mechanical parts are in working order and there. After giving the shotgun a good once over and cleaning I cleared it for a day of shooting skeet. Showed up at the area and took its first test shots with federal 2 and 3/4 target load 12Gauge, with safety gear on and both shot great. After inspecting the shotgun all was well! Was shooting all afternoon and I shot the most shells through that shotgun that day, was having a blast with it and it was one of my best shotguns for hitting skeet as well! I fell in love and for the price I couldn't believe how well and how good this shotgun felt! For a shotgun that was built somewhere in 1890-1900 it really impressed me.

So, now that I have cleared it as a shotgun I want to use and shoot a lot more Im going to spend my time refinishing it. I have refinished firearms before, but only touch ups with little bluing kits, I have never reblued a whole barrel and such. So question is any advice on how to do this and precautions to take?

I have been doing a lot of reading and watching videos on different styles and ways, just seeing what works best for you guys? Cold blue, "stump removal hot bluing", 3 bottle kits from browns and such.

I will post pictures with the project in another thread. Thanks for reading and taking your time to comment, have a great day!
 
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No hot blue for old doubles. It tends to erode the bond between the barrels and ribs. Cold " rust" blue ( or "Blacking") only. Nothing more unsightly than a classic old double that has been hot blued. And it may be unsafe to shoot after that treatment!
 
What Longwalker said regarding blueing.

If your date range is correct (I believe you meant to say 1890-1900), your gun was almost certainly made with short chambers (2 1/2", 2 5/8", 2 9/16"), prior to the advent of 2 3/4" shells and prior to the advent of modern load pressures. I would not be shooting modern 2 3/4" target loads in that gun. At best you will be slowly making that gun off-face. At worst is a chamber rupture and personal injury.
 
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ninepointer said:
What Longwalker said regarding blueing.

If your date range is correct (I believe you meant to say 1890-1900), your gun was almost certainly made with short chambers (2 1/2" - 2 5/8") and prior to the advent of modern load pressures. I would not be shooting modern 2 3/4" target loads in that gun.
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Generally ,,,,, before1934 shotgun chambers where NOT with standard 2 3/4" chambers. The forcing cones where often different & chamber
lengths where seldom stamped on the guns. Measuring them can be tricky . The best way I have found is with Brownell's gauges # 080-546-000.
That is a whole set . You can buy individual ga. also.
Chamber lengths can be reamed out to 2 3/4" ,,,,, BUT ,,,,, only on a gun that has been properly evaluated by a qualified gunsmith .
I have reamed many out , in both 12 & 20 ga. using the long forcing cone reamer . Those ones , I still will only use the weakest loads .
Just shooting the gun a # of times will not be proof that your ammo. is safe to use. If your load is hotter than the gun was designed for , the gun
may come apart on the 1st. shot or sometime down the road . ,,,,,,,,,,,,, Frank
 
The only bluing I would use on a double is hot water blue. Prepare the metal, degrease, boil, swap on the solution, boil, card off, boil, swab on blue, card off, etc., until the desired colour is reached. Time consuming but not difficult.
If the gun is Belgian, the barrels may be brazed, rather than soft soldered together.
More information about the gun is in order. If it has welded barrels, it is possible to rebrown them to bring up the pattern.
It has been reliably reported that 2 3/4" plastic shells don't spike pressures in slightly shorter chambers. The case walls are so thin that there is no jamming in the forcing cone, unlike when paper shells are used.
You really do want to ascertain exactly what your chamber length is, though.
If the gun was a decent quality gun when made, it may well be a shooter. But there were a lot of really cheap guns marketed in that period.
 
I would use the slow rust blue method that Triag mentioned. It is one of the most durable long lasting methods out there and is the way these guns were done years ago.
If the gun is as old as you say, I would not be shooting a steady diet of modern loads or you are going to eventually have problems from going off face, cracking the stock to possible barrel failure. The pressures back then were not the same as today's modern loads (most of them) and the gun was not designed for them. This includes target loads. They are not low pressure. You also want velocity kept on the lower side.What kind of gun is it? Perhaps it is only black powder proof. Are you sure the barrels are not damascus with a worn off pattern or a low grade fluid steel? You said the stock needs refinishing, the barrels need bluing and it has pitting. Are you certain the gun is in the condition you think it is. I don't mean this as criticism but more for a safety factor. I think this gun needs to be checked further to verify what kind of barrels it has and chamber length as well as properly checked for wear/ play in the action. I believe this demonstrates that one cannot, or should not, buy these old guns without fully understanding them and what the intended use for them will be.
 
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Well, as others have said, if you're dates are correct, your chambers are most probably 2 1/2", and the gun would have most likely been proofed for black powder only. You need to post pictures of the proof marks on the barrels for more info.
With older shotguns, barrel condition is everything. You will need to have both the bore, and the barrel wall thickness measured (special tools needed, try to find a reputable SXS gunsmith to measure and evaluate), at a minimum, before you try shooting the gun further. As well, the action needs to be checked and cleaned, they are delicate mechanisms and old grease and oil, dirt, corrosion, and Bubba's previous repairs can all lead to unsafe operation.
If you have done no damage to the gun so far by shooting the modern nitro loads, consider yourself extremely lucky. Consider yourself extremely lucky anyway, that you didn't hurt yourself!
 
tiriaq said:
The only bluing I would use on a double is hot water blue. Prepare the metal, degrease, boil, swap on the solution, boil, card off, boil, swab on blue, card off, etc., until the desired colour is reached. Time consuming but not difficult.
If the gun is Belgian, the barrels may be brazed, rather than soft soldered together.
More information about the gun is in order. If it has welded barrels, it is possible to rebrown them to bring up the pattern.
It has been reliably reported that 2 3/4" plastic shells don't spike pressures in slightly shorter chambers. The case walls are so thin that there is no jamming in the forcing cone, unlike when paper shells are used.
You really do want to ascertain exactly what your chamber length is, though.
If the gun was a decent quality gun when made, it may well be a shooter. But there were a lot of really cheap guns marketed in that period.
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What do you use to card off the oxide?
 
You can card with degreased 000 or 0000 steel wool or a fine wire brush or very fine wire wheel. If using a wire wheel, a light touch is important; use the side edge of the wheel, not the face. The wheel must be broken in.
 
Thanks for all your guys comments and info on the subject.

Before purchasing this shotgun the previous owner said it shot 2 and 3/4 fine. I wasn't going to go with anything bigger or anything stronger then a small target load in this shotgun. I think the excitement got me going and just remembering the fact that he shot it before made me forget about age and weakness of the shotgun... ( We all do it at some point, and it isn't right in the case of something that is exploding in your hands) But i did prepare for the first 2 shots with all the proper safety gear and protection. I think after the shooting went so smooth thats when i let my guard down and enjoyed it little too much... But yes nothing happen and I was lucky.

But more in the subject its self. I typed up this thread going off the basis of info the previous owner told me and from the eye. Mostly wanted it for the info on bluing and refinishing of my shotgun and wanted to wait until I could updated this thread with pictures for others to see what I have and give their own info on the subject so here it is. The marking on the shotgun are pretty beat up, buts see what you guys think.




"The Liege United Arms Co LTD Liege ( Belgium )

"Domination"

 
It is a lower grade Belgian gun made before 1924 by Liege United Arms. Looks like it was only proofed for black powder. From the pics, it also looks like the barrels are off face from the action. It has a back action lock. Don't be surprised if the stock is cracked behind the lockplates. There is not much wood behind the lockplates.
Maybe it's just the way the pic makes it appear but have the barrels been cut off? They look short. What is the length of them?
 
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gunsaholic said:
It is a lower grade Belgian gun made before 1924 by Liege United Arms. Looks like it was only proofed for black powder. From the pics, it also looks like the barrels are off face from the action. It has a back action lock. Don't be surprised if the stock is cracked behind the lockplates. There is not much wood behind the lockplates.
Maybe it's just the way the pic makes it appear but have the barrels been cut off? They look short. What is the length of them?
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Thanks for the info. I was told 1890-1900, but after looking into it more it would have a different style of hammers. The stock is in good shape with no damage or cracks surprising. It is short, they are 20" in total, but both side have 18.0 on the sides and just before ejectors are 18"? I kinda like the barrel length, compared to my other stoeger at 28".
 
Urban, I'm sorry to say that what you have there is a wall hanger. I own one virtually the same gun as yours and these are my intended uses:

1. Test out my new set of gunsmith screwdrivers.

2. Practice disassembly / assembly.

3. Practice stock bending.

4. Make it into a floor lamp (seriously).
 
UrbanElite said:
Thanks for the info. I was told 1890-1900, but after looking into it more it would have a different style of hammers. The stock is in good shape with no damage or cracks surprising. It is short, they are 20" in total, but both side have 18.0 on the sides and just before ejectors are 18"? I kinda like the barrel length, compared to my other stoeger at 28".
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Your barrels have been cut. I bet if you drop a dime down the muzzles it will slide right in with no problem.
You mentioned that you would just use target loads. Target loads are not low pressure or necessarily low velocity. Pressure and velocity are 2 different things. Very simplified, high pressure is what will cause barrel failure, the action to come loose, etc. High velocity is what will cause excessive recoil which will destroy the stock on an old gun. Your gun is black powder proof and not designed for a diet of off the shelf target loads. As I mentioned, it looks to me that there is a gap between the barrels and the face of the action. If so, I caution you about shooting this gun very much with any load unless the problem is rectified.
 
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The good news is this is the perfect gun to learn and practice bluing skills. Assuming you only wanted to do this work so that you'd have a nicer gun and to protect it better against the elements, it isn't worth the effort. On the other hand, if part of your motivation was to enhance your skills, this gun poses no risk of damaging a piece of historic value, or even a shooter.
 
Thanks for the info. I bought this shotgun for 2 reasons. Shooting and have a cool older wall hanger I could refinish within time to learn. Now that i have found that shooting is kinda out of the question, then i guess it will be my next art piece. Learn some new skills I have always wanted to get better at.

I want another double barrel for shooting skeet and such with. I went to Cabela's and handled many different brands, price points ect.. But this is just going to be a beat up shotgun and skeet shooter. The reason why i liked the old one i have is it feels great, its old so doesn't matter if it gets beat up and the price point is great. SO what should I be looking for year wise and price point to fit my needs?
 
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