338 Lapua Brass

JonnyRossco · Jan 8, 2016

Hey There,

I recently recieved 300 pieces of brand new Lapua Brass for my 338 LM. I started from scratch ladder testing. I started at 86gr H-1000 and I am now up to 94gr with no signs of pressure at all. There in lays my query. I was previously using PPU Brass and saw severe pressure around 91.5gr. anyone else have any experience of this nature with the Lapua Brass? Is it that much tougher?

I have not run the chrony yet to check velocity, but I have checked case volume and it is very close between the two brands. All things being equal regarding case dimension, the pressure should be much higher with the higher charge weight... Or am I missing something...

Thanks for your input!

JR

JayCarver · Jan 9, 2016

I started getting into pressure at 91grs of h-1000 behind a 300gr bullet. 92grs was way to hot in my rifle. A guy I shoot with loads 94grs with no sign of pressure, same bullet and powder.

kb007 · Jan 9, 2016

Weigh some of each of the cases, normally the Lapua brass is heavier indicating more material. And yes, they are pretty tough little dudes

JonnyRossco · Jan 9, 2016

I suppose I forgot to mention that I'm working with a 300gr Berger OTM. If I could figure out how to upload pictures to this site I would post some of the fired brass headstamps. I think I'll try going a little higher to see if I get some sign of pressure. I dont think I will attempt to go too much hotter though. Next step is chrony. I will post results.

JR

Andy · Jan 9, 2016

I assume that this is with a 300 gr bullet? What's the loaded OAL? Firearm used?

This thread illustrates nicely the folly of using "pressure signs" on brass to interpret pressure. They're subjective, and not all brass is the same. With respect to primers, low pressure is often interpreted as high pressure.

Aside from loose primer pockets, your best signs are the published load data and a chronograph. If it's a 300 gr bullet, I'm surprised that you could fit that much in the case. You didn't give the loaded OAL- long throat? In any event, a full case of H1000 with any bullet should be within acceptable pressure limits.

JonnyRossco · Jan 9, 2016

Andy said:
I assume that this is with a 300 gr bullet? What's the loaded OAL? Firearm used?

This thread illustrates nicely the folly of using "pressure signs" on brass to interpret pressure. They're subjective, and not all brass is the same. With respect to primers, low pressure is often interpreted as high pressure.

Aside from loose primer pockets, your best signs are the published load data and a chronograph. If it's a 300 gr bullet, I'm surprised that you could fit that much in the case. You didn't give the loaded OAL- long throat? In any event, a full case of H1000 with any bullet should be within acceptable pressure limits.

Yes it is a 300gr Berger and COAL is 3.867 seated 0.015" off. It's a Nesika 1.470 action with a Bencmark MTU contour barrel. There is still case volume avalable to load more powder if desired. Like I said previously, I am simply running ladder testing up to the point that I see either pressure signs (of any description at this point) or an opening in grouping.

I do not intend to run the highest velocity load that I find for the sake of barrel life. Mostly I'm just a little shocked at the difference in the Lapua brass. I have never run it in the past. I may work up to 95gr with caution at this point, but after that, if I still see no appreciable pressure indication I will likely go no further.

JR

Kelly Timoffee · Jan 9, 2016

A 338 LM is not a barrel burner, if you are getting 2700+ ft/sec with a 300gr projectile , well there is a lot more performance there than one imagines with a "low" velocity.

Lapua brass is the the best there is right now.I went beyond max with Retumbo, with no bolt lift issue or other negative signs.I did start at the minimum as I always do and go for accuracy.

That brass will last a long long time with a moderate load.

JonnyRossco said:
Yes it is a 300gr Berger and COAL is 3.867 seated 0.015" off. It's a Nesika 1.470 action with a Bencmark MTU contour barrel. There is still case volume avalable to load more powder if desired. Like I said previously, I am simply running ladder testing up to the point that I see either pressure signs (of any description at this point) or an opening in grouping.

I do not intend to run the highest velocity load that I find for the sake of barrel life. Mostly I'm just a little shocked at the difference in the Lapua brass. I have never run it in the past. I may work up to 95gr with caution at this point, but after that, if I still see no appreciable pressure indication I will likely go no further.

JR

Andy · Jan 9, 2016

You've got a long throat! I too would probably go to 95.0 grs, but you really need to shoot these loads over a chrony first.

JonnyRossco said:
Yes it is a 300gr Berger and COAL is 3.867 seated 0.015" off. It's a Nesika 1.470 action with a Bencmark MTU contour barrel. There is still case volume avalable to load more powder if desired. Like I said previously, I am simply running ladder testing up to the point that I see either pressure signs (of any description at this point) or an opening in grouping.

I do not intend to run the highest velocity load that I find for the sake of barrel life. Mostly I'm just a little shocked at the difference in the Lapua brass. I have never run it in the past. I may work up to 95gr with caution at this point, but after that, if I still see no appreciable pressure indication I will likely go no further.

JR

JonnyRossco · Jan 9, 2016

See, this is one of the only forums I have found where a guy can present a question of this nature and not be bombarded with negative comments. I applaud Canadian GunNutz!

Cummins · Jan 9, 2016

I must of had a hot batch of h1000 couldn't get over 90 now I've settled on 93gr retumble.

todbartell · Jan 9, 2016

Code:

Cartridge          : .338 Lapua
Bullet             : .338, 300, Berger Hybr OTM #33106
Useable Case Capaci: 93.796 grain H2O = 6.090 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.867 inch = 98.22 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H1000

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   99    84.60   2504    4177   53265  11799     99.9    1.412  ! Near Maximum !
-09.0  100    85.54   2532    4271   55256  11864    100.0    1.388  ! Near Maximum !
-08.0  101    86.48   2560    4366   57367  11920    100.0    1.365  ! Near Maximum !
-07.0  102    87.42   2588    4461   59548  11970    100.0    1.342  ! Near Maximum !
-06.0  103    88.36   2616    4557   61822  12018    100.0    1.320  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-05.0  104    89.30   2643    4654   64193  12065    100.0    1.298  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0  106    90.24   2671    4752   66670  12111    100.0    1.276  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-03.0  107    91.18   2698    4850   69255  12156    100.0    1.255  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0  108    92.12   2726    4949   71955  12199    100.0    1.234  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-01.0  109    93.06   2753    5049   74780  12241    100.0    1.213  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0  110    94.00   2780    5149   77732  12281    100.0    1.193  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0  111    94.94   2807    5250   80822  12320    100.0    1.174  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0  112    95.88   2835    5352   84055  12357    100.0    1.154  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0  113    96.82   2862    5455   87443  12392    100.0    1.135  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  114    97.76   2889    5559   90984  12426    100.0    1.116  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0  115    98.70   2916    5664   94684  12458    100.0    1.098  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Andy · Jan 9, 2016

Interesting. Yet with the Sierra HPBT seated much deeper at 3.600" you have this from Hodgdon's data:

Hodgdon%20338%20LM%20300%20gr%20H1000%20Load_zps9lczaz3d.jpg

The Sierra 300 gr HPBT is long for a 300 gr 0.338" bullet at 1.736". What's the length of the Berger Hybrid OTM?

JonnyRossco · Jan 9, 2016

todbartell said:

Code:

Cartridge          : .338 Lapua
Bullet             : .338, 300, Berger Hybr OTM #33106
Useable Case Capaci: 93.796 grain H2O = 6.090 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.867 inch = 98.22 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H1000

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   99    84.60   2504    4177   53265  11799     99.9    1.412  ! Near Maximum !
-09.0  100    85.54   2532    4271   55256  11864    100.0    1.388  ! Near Maximum !
-08.0  101    86.48   2560    4366   57367  11920    100.0    1.365  ! Near Maximum !
-07.0  102    87.42   2588    4461   59548  11970    100.0    1.342  ! Near Maximum !
-06.0  103    88.36   2616    4557   61822  12018    100.0    1.320  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-05.0  104    89.30   2643    4654   64193  12065    100.0    1.298  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0  106    90.24   2671    4752   66670  12111    100.0    1.276  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-03.0  107    91.18   2698    4850   69255  12156    100.0    1.255  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0  108    92.12   2726    4949   71955  12199    100.0    1.234  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-01.0  109    93.06   2753    5049   74780  12241    100.0    1.213  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0  110    94.00   2780    5149   77732  12281    100.0    1.193  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0  111    94.94   2807    5250   80822  12320    100.0    1.174  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0  112    95.88   2835    5352   84055  12357    100.0    1.154  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0  113    96.82   2862    5455   87443  12392    100.0    1.135  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  114    97.76   2889    5559   90984  12426    100.0    1.116  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0  115    98.70   2916    5664   94684  12458    100.0    1.098  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Interesting!

What program is it that you are using?

JR

todbartell · Jan 10, 2016

JonnyRossco said:
Interesting!

What program is it that you are using?

JR

Quickload

Andy said:
Interesting. Yet with the Sierra HPBT seated much deeper at 3.600" you have this from Hodgdon's data:

The Sierra 300 gr HPBT is long for a 300 gr 0.338" bullet at 1.736". What's the length of the Berger Hybrid OTM?

1.81" for the 300gr OTM --- Interesting Hodgdon data. I've never used Norma 338L brass, but it appears maybe it has much larger case capacity than the norm?

Code:

Cartridge          : .338 Lapua
Bullet             : .338, 300, Sierra HPBT LR MatchK 9300
Useable Case Capaci: 90.451 grain H2O = 5.873 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.600 inch = 91.44 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H1000

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0  100    82.80   2500    4162   53642  11447     99.9    1.409  ! Near Maximum !
-09.0  102    83.72   2528    4257   55690  11510     99.9    1.385  ! Near Maximum !
-08.0  103    84.64   2556    4352   57827  11564    100.0    1.362  ! Near Maximum !
-07.0  104    85.56   2584    4448   60060  11611    100.0    1.339  ! Near Maximum !
-06.0  105    86.48   2612    4545   62388  11655    100.0    1.316  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-05.0  106    87.40   2640    4643   64813  11698    100.0    1.294  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0  107    88.32   2668    4741   67361  11739    100.0    1.272  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-03.0  108    89.24   2696    4840   70017  11779    100.0    1.250  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0  109    90.16   2723    4940   72796  11818    100.0    1.229  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-01.0  110    91.08   2751    5040   75705  11855    100.0    1.209  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0  112    92.00   2778    5142   78746  11890    100.0    1.189  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

My only experience loading 338 Lapua with H1000 is 250gr Accubond, 93.5grs H1000. Gave 2900 fps in a 24" Rem 700. QL suggests that combo should produce 2863 fps @ 63,116PSI

I suspect the Hodgdon data is a tad hot, despite their fairly mild results? If someone has some 338L Norma & Lapua brass, maybe weigh some empty, fired brass, and then fill with water to the top and re-weigh. This will show the case capacity in h20. I usually weigh a few to get a decent average

Berger 338" 300gr load data here - http://www.bergerbullets.com/Reloading_Data/338Lapua300gr.pdf

85.2grs H1000 max (@ 3.681" OAL)

QL suggests that load would produce 2629 fps from a 26" barrel, @ 60,184PSI - that makes more sense to me! Same speed as Berger manual, so either Berger used QL to produce their data, or QL is bang on...

Andy · Jan 10, 2016

Quickload is not pressure testing equipment, it's a software program that estimates expected pressure based on the inputs it's given. It's a good tool to use along with load data, a chronograph and real pressure signs. It's not infallible and I'll go with a powder manufacturer's data over Quickload any day.

What's missing here is chronograph data. It tells a tale about pressure, as would the primer pockets on the fired brass. Even one firing at 77.7K psi like Quickload suggests was used by the OP, would loosen a primer pocket on even the hardest brass.

JonnyRossco · Jan 10, 2016

Andy said:
Quickload is not pressure testing equipment, it's a software program that estimates expected pressure based on the inputs it's given. It's a good tool to use along with load data, a chronograph and real pressure signs. It's not infallible and I'll go with a powder manufacturer's data over Quickload any day.

What's missing here is chronograph data. It tells a tale about pressure, as would the primer pockets on the fired brass. Even one firing at 77.7K psi like Quickload suggests was used by the OP, would loosen a primer pocket on even the hardest brass.

I'm at work for a few more days and then I will get back to the range. As soon as I have some chrony data, I will post it.

Thanks,

JR

Kelly Timoffee · Jan 10, 2016

Average velocity Charge weight

2527 83gr
2552 84gr
2581 85gr
2589 86gr
2628 87gr
2643 88gr
2665 89gr
2690 90gr
2720 91gr
2759 92gr
2768 93gr
2802 94gr
2817 95gr

COAL length to lands 3.821" , 3.125" w/.30 cal comparator
COAL length to fit magazine 3.755" , 3.060" w/.30 cal comparator

One of my load tests on a 26" Barrel , W - H1000 , 300gr Lapua Scenar. Lapua brass ,215 primers.

This is real world at the range.I stop testing when I feel uncomfortable when pressure signs are showing.Published data is a guide and each rifle is so different.

I settled on Retumbo and 300Gr SMK , the results were what I wanted.

p.s. - Anybody else having issues on the reloading data center for Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester ?

todbartell · Jan 10, 2016

Andy said:
Quickload is not pressure testing equipment, it's a software program that estimates expected pressure based on the inputs it's given. It's a good tool to use along with load data, a chronograph and real pressure signs. It's not infallible and I'll go with a powder manufacturer's data over Quickload any day.

I'd trust QL, and Berger's published load data with the specific bullet in question, before Hodgdon's data which uses a totally different bullet. Especially when their data is so strange, giving a very high powder charge that gave them a modest velocity

Look at Kelly's ladder test below. It show results more similar to Berger/QL than Hodgdon

todbartell · Jan 10, 2016

Kelly Timoffee said:
Average velocity Charge weight

2527 83gr
2552 84gr
2581 85gr
2589 86gr
2628 87gr
2643 88gr
2665 89gr
2690 90gr
2720 91gr
2759 92gr
2768 93gr
2802 94gr
2817 95gr

QL :
2516 83gr
2546 84gr
2576 85gr
2605 86gr
2635 87gr
2664 88gr
2694 89gr
2723 90gr
2752 91gr
2781 92gr
2810 93gr
2839 94gr
2867 95gr

barsik · Jan 10, 2016

a tight chamber will pressure up quicker than a looser chamber, and seating to the lands will also make a difference.

338 Lapua Brass

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