Norinco M-305 build help

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DandyBoy

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Im new to the site and just traded for a new M-305 22" in mystery wood stock.

I've heard all the good and bad stuff about them and decided to give it a shot. I went ahead and shoot a few 5 round groups with some PPU surplus 308 win. I was shocked to see some decent honest 3.5-4" groups. That was with surplus so I'm excited to see the changes after the upgrades and some match ammo.

So right now I've got a new Boyds walnut stock, and have rough sanded the receiver, op rod, bolt exterior, etc with some Amery clothe.

I had to grind and destroy the flash suppressor to get it off, as the welds just WOULD not let go. I'm not to upset as it was a pretty ugly casting to begin with.

When I'm done with the rough sand and all my parts come in they'll go to Arma-coat for some park and paint.

My question is about headspacing... how do I measure it? Will it change over 200-300 rounds with the crap Norc bolt? Is there anything that I should be upgrading inside the bolt, or just buy a new fulton armoury bolt? How will this effect my head space?

See full of questions,

Help me out here
 
Ive had 6 m305's.
Never had a problem with the bolt or headspace issues.
I think you're worrying about nothing.
Shoot and enjoy.
 
Buy a set of headspace gauges, strip your bolt and find your headspace

A brand new Fulton armoury bolt will shrink your headspace (or at least it did for me)
I would check your norinco bolt headspace before U spend the money on a usgi or Fulton bolt

Everything u are asking is in this forum... Just read! :)
 
long story short FORGET EVERYTHING YOU READ FROM FULTON ARMORY- NOT ONLY does he not sell to Canadians, he bad-mouths everything Chinese to his own benefit- do a little more research esp on this forum, and if you have questions get a hold of tactical teacher- and your concern over the headspacing hasn't been a concern since 1995 or so-in other words if your 305 was made in this century, the headspacing probably is within tolerances- and it MAY be spot-on- some folks beat the headspacing thing by replacing the Chinese bolt with a usgi, but I've got a 1990 norinco with no problems- in other words you've been led down a path- no, it will not "grow" as you shoot it unless you have a soft bolt- and it's emery cloth- not only do you have to install the bolt, headspace it, and then you have to LAP it as well- and it may NOT be be necessary
 
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OP, one thing to keep in mind is that the US banned import of Chinese M-14 clones in the mid-90's, so everything you read from US sources is talking about pre-Clinton batches. The currently available Canadian imports don't tend to have the same problems (they have their own, lol). Soft bolts, for example, seem to be quite rare up here.

Although it's not precise, a good way to ballpark your headspace is to measure a few fired cases with an RCBS headspace micrometer. Make sure you fire them with the gas system turned off, and fire a few so you can take an average of them. That should give you a number that's likely within a couple of thou of your actual headspace, and will let you know if you have a problem. Remember that these rifles are chambered for 7.62x51 NATO (even though they often have .308 stamped on them) and thus have different go, no-go, and field values than .308 Winchester.

A Fulton bolt will likely not close in a Norc receiver without considerable lapping, maybe too much lapping. If you do decide that you need to fix your headspace the simplest way is usually with a new barrel reamed to match the Norc bolt. A USGI bolt is much more likely to drop right in and fit properly, but they're rare as hen's teeth up here.
 
Thanks for all the reply

I did a quick search on here and just couldn't find the right answers to my questions.

When I get it back from park and paint I will throw up some pictures.

Good to hear about most of the soft bolt/ head space problems being fixed. I did notice the gas system needed some shims, trigger pull was pretty hard, stock to receiver fit was garbage.

Got some parts on the way to help solve these issues;

Unitized gas block/system with tin coated gas piston
New roll pins
USGI flash suppressor (replacement for broken norc)
NM guide rod and spring
NM front sight
USGI hammer spring
Boyds stock
USGI rear sight

This should fix it right up.
 
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BTW a new bolt is not a "drop in" affair. There is a lot of work to fit the bolt to the receiver and to get the head space correct.

The only thing I would do with a new gun is to replace the spring guide. Then shoot it a lot and tweek things as you go.

Lots of people have laid out lots of cash on replacement parts only to figure out the gun will never be better then a 2" at 100 shooter.

Make sure the company doing the coating knows what to coat and what not too.
 
Agree with all the above advice, and will add a bit of my own.
If you do change out the bolt, unless you are the luckiest guy on the planet, you are going to be looking at lapping.
Been there done that, it aint hard.
BUT FIND TONY BENNS HOW TO VIDEO BEFORE YOU START. ( I would link it if I knew how, but I cant even remember where I put my coffee, getting old is NOT fun )
Its a fantastic walk through and takes all the anguish and sleepless nights away.
On another note, why not try it with some top end rounds or hand loads before pumping a crap load of cash into it.
Some of these shoot VERY well just with the right load.

Good luck with the build.
 
BTW a new bolt is not a "drop in" affair. There is a lot of work to fit the bolt to the receiver and to get the head space correct.
Click to expand...

I will make my decision based on what the current headspace measures at with the norinco bolt.

On another note, why not try it with some top end rounds or hand loads before pumping a crap load of cash into it.
Some of these shoot VERY well just with the right load.
Click to expand...

I agree with this, and will be working up a good load for this rifle when it's done. My main train of thought was to put down a base line with a "before and after" using readily avail surplus.

I'll post some pics tonight of the work down so far.
 
Modifications to the stock rifle should be kept to (and are relevant only to) what actually needs to be addressed with these rifles Sir.
Case in point not all the Norc flash hiders are bad. As long as the sight base in properly machined to be flat and in line with the center of the muzzle then why change it?
It's good to go. I kept mine on. It's machined just fine, why swap it? It's a chunk of metal on the end of the barrel that holds a sight blade.
A lot of the parts guys swap out for USGI or M1A are pointless. The op rod guide is fine, the op rod is fine, the barrels are well made, the receivers are excellent etc etc
Unless you get one where there is a clear and actual badly machined part that is causing an actual issue aside from the ones mentioned above, there is little to zero benefit in replacing them with MUCH more expensive parts. Most flaws in these parts that can be seen can be fixed with a file or dremel in your basement.

The beauty of the Norc M305 is that you can take a $450 gun off the EE and by working on it in your basement with common tools and $100 in parts for a rear sight set etc you can turn it into an amazing rifle. Replacing parts that work fine for much more expensive stuff turns a $450 gun into a $1000 gun that still shoots like a $450 gun.

Likewise with the sights. Get a NM rear sight assembly as priority. The front sight is just a steel blade. It's the trunions and gears on the norc sights that are bad. I would replace that immediately regardless if they are working at the moment. It's a safe bet that they will shortly strip and fail over time from personal experience.
There is nothing wrong with the Norc bolts. I have put thousands of rounds through the M305 between my old Norc and my current one. The bolts are well made.

Make sure your barrel is indexed/threaded into the receiver properly and correctly timed (lined up so the front site is straight up and not canted off to left or right)
If it is off you need to torque the barrel over be it left or right by less than usually 2-4 degrees, very very little. This isn't going to throw off your headspace to catastrophic failure in a sloppy action battle rifle.
The op rod guides are usually off center so the op rod will not be moving in line properly. This could be putting pressure on the rod arm in the receiver groove etc could cause feeding problems as well if it's off enough. To fix this is as easy as driving the pin out of the op rod guide, hammering the guide forward, center punching the hell out of the surface under it, then hammering it back on and tapping it over so it's in line perfectly with the gas system/piston.

People put a lot of emphasis on headspacing etc I think it's a waste of time. It's a loose LOOSE tolerance battle rifle design. I've had to torque/index both barrels on my current and last M305. I did not headspace or even bother to check with expensive gauges and other nonsense. Put it this way, go to the range, load the magazine and pull back the action and release it. Let a round chamber naturally. Did it go all the way in the chamber? Is the bolt fully closed? Yes? Then fire the rifle, one round only. Pick up the ejected casing. Look for flattened primers, seperation/stretch marks on the case etc etc Go to: http://www.massreloading.com/reading_pressure_signs.html that will tell you everything you need to know.
None of these signs apparent on the brass? Then fire another 5 rounds. Check all the spent cases again. Good to go/no signs of overpressure? Headspace is now 100% fine! Done.

The M14 is one of the simplest firearms designs around. There's around 75 parts complete in a semi auto civilian version. That's pins nuts and bolt included. There's a lot of people that get off on declaring themselves experts on this rifle because it's so simple it's ridiculous. Guys get all bent around the axle when it comes to working on them because everyone and everyone can easily declare themselves well versed in the design. I guess it makes people feel bigger and better than others by trying to make it sound way more complex than it really is and that their secret expert ninja knowledge is much more betterer than others or whatever.....

This is all personal opinion of course, but it's personal opinion based on calm logic and personal experience/experience of close shooting friends over the years of owning and shooting the Norc M305

It's a great bargain rifle Sir. Enjoy her!
 
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Travis Buckle

Great advice and I will take it seriously.

I will have to replace the flash suppressor, as the old one was destroyed upon removing it. I removed it simply to take the gas cylinder off as its getting reparkerized a nice black.

I will be replacing the gas cylinder with a unitized NM version as this version has the front band welded up, it also has the front handguard slots a little higher to keep the handguard off the barrel.

As the rifle shoots fine and is fairly accurate "as is", I'm sure the headspace is fine. I've dropped all dreams of screwing with the headspace.
 
DandyBoy said:
Travis Buckle

Great advice and I will take it seriously.

I will have to replace the flash suppressor, as the old one was destroyed upon removing it. I removed it simply to take the gas cylinder off as its getting reparkerized a nice black.

I will be replacing the gas cylinder with a unitized NM version as this version has the front band welded up, it also has the front handguard slots a little higher to keep the handguard off the barrel.

As the rifle shoots fine and is fairly accurate "as is", I'm sure the headspace is fine. I've dropped all dreams of screwing with the headspace.
Click to expand...

Seen.
Aye, they are great shooting rifles.
And I still once in a while come across slight oddities in the rifles.
The latest one I just bought off the EE had a badly machined "hump" under the barrel just ahead of the receiver.
The spot where the op rod saddle curve would ride under the barrel when the action is to the rear.
The barrel had a small 1/2" wide bump that the op rod saddle would be pushed down forcibly as it rode over causing the op rod charging handle to bind up so hard in the receiver I couldn't cycle it by hand without excessive force.
I could have swapped the barrel but I just took a bastard file to the hump under the barrel nice and slow with curving light strokes until the op rod cleared it. Voila the op rod now clears and rifle functions flawlessly and still shoots as good as it did before lol
Post some pics up when you're done man! My current M305 is literally beat to 5**t. The finish is almost worn off in some spots and the stock is battered to hell.
It looks awesome! :rockOn:
The Main Battle Rifle section is a mountain of Norinco M14 knowledge! Check all the stickies at the top of the thread as well.
 
Hey get this,

All this worrying about headspace and she measured at 1.634.

Which is great as I'm planning on mostly shooting 308 win, I'm not fond of reloading 7.62 NATO because of the beridian primers. 308 win is much easier to find cases for.

Anyone know where to get some same base dies for 308 win?
 
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DandyBoy said:
Hey get this,

All this worrying about headspace and she measured at 1.634.

Which is great as I'm planning on mostly shooting 308 win, I'm not fond of reloading 7.62 NATO because of the beridian primers. 308 win is much easier to find cases for.

Anyone know where to get some same base dies for 308 win?
Click to expand...

EE is where I got my .30-06 dies for dirt cheap.
I don't buy anything new though because I'm a cheap a55 lol
The M14 was designed to shoot 147gr FMJ 7.62 x 51mm NATO. I always find it shoots lighter projectiles better. May just be me.
I had some handloads with 150gr Hornady FMJ made up for my last one, was putting 5 rounds in about 3" circle with the irons at 100 meters.
They can definitely shoot.
 
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