Mind boggled. New Vortex Razor HD larger group size?

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longarm21

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My target rig is:
Remington 700 PSS .308 (Mid 90's) in an AICS 2.0 Chassis. I had a Sightron SIII 6-24x50 on it, and I was shooting anywhere from .3 to .8 MOA with it very consistently with almost all types of ammunition. Even managed a .35 MOA group with a box of federal blue box SP at 100m.
Loading with match rounds it pretty much shoots half MOA or better all day long.

So I decide to upgrade my scope and go with a Vortex Razor HD Gen 1 5-20x50 MRAD EBR2. Great glass, looks good. Solid as heck. Clicks are bang on. What I can`t figure out is why my groups opened up to .8 - 1.5 MOA at 100m. 3 would be touching, and two would throw high to the right of the group not touching. I`m a little lost.


Possible factors:
Ammo - I used a batch of Nosler Accubond which I have never shot out of this rifle. 165 gr.
I had to go over to the 35mm Vortex Rings. They are aluminum and I have a steel badger base.
Another is the parallax is a little different in the Razor than in my SIII, so I am trying to be as consistent as possible.

Lastly I could just be out of practice, because I`ve been shooting my .33.8 Lapua ALOT lately. Perhaps my technique with the heavy recoiling rifle has changed the way I`m shooting the .308
 
The obvious thing to do first is try some ammo that shot well before, I wouldn't look at anything else until you can be sure the ammo isn't the culprit.
 
Yeah I`m heading out this weekend to do a ladder test with match rounds, but first i will test some match groups out and see if that solves it. ¸ Just really wanted to get what peoples thoughts are or if I missed anything. I will update this as I go.
 
Rule out all possibilities first.
Bases, rings snug...check
Occular lens, (only used for making the cross hairs clear) check
Objective lens, try as a standard practice to adjust parallax by first setting at the max(infinity stop) and dialing back until clear. Check cross hair movement by adjusting your eye up, down, side to side. If you see the cross hairs move at your target, then your parallax is out, re-adjust from 0 stop again.
Then, do a box test on your scope to ensure cross hairs are tracking. ie, shoot groups at 100m from 0, up 6 over 3 down 12 other way 12 up 6 over to center 6. You group should be back at 0. If it isn't....your scope goes back for warrantee or replacement.
Caveat, if your adjustment at sight in is maximizing the usable windage or elevation then you need to have a relook at the entire set up. A quick check by placing the scope ocular at low power against a mirror will identify whether your set up is is leading to the edge of adjustment. You will see two cross hairs. they should line up vertically. If one is way off bingo. (Way off would be 20moa or more 5 moa is within reason if the rings are not lapped or aligned.) This can impair your scopes ability to perform. Having a centered scope to the bore is a challenge if your bases or rings are not aligned to the bore (do some research on this, lots a good info on the net) If not comfortable seek a professional to help in centering your scope. Do this first before you waste any more ammo.
My 2c
 
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Those are some pretty significant factors.

1) Before you can compare accuracy it has to be the same load. Revert back to what is tried and true.
2) Parallax is "different". NEVER look at the numbers or hash marks on turret. Adjust with what's seen through the scope. Do the head bobble.
3) Double check all fastening to ensure everything is matted up correctly.

Last check if it's the scope itself. Maybe see if a buddy could confirm wondering accuracy, etc. If so, send in for repair.
 
Shibby! said:
Those are some pretty significant factors.

2) Parallax is "different". NEVER look at the numbers or hash marks on turret. Adjust with what's seen through the scope. Do the head bobble.

Last check if it's the scope itself. Maybe see if a buddy could confirm wondering accuracy, etc. If so, send in for repair.
Click to expand...

This. I have been using the labelled parralax number on the dial...... good advice.
 
I was just burning the box of accubonds to get the brass. I use nosler brass for a hunting load. I was just shocked that this performed so poorly.
 
elkhuntr said:
Rule out all possibilities first.
Bases, rings snug...check
Occular lens, (only used for making the cross hairs clear) check
Objective lens, try as a standard practice to adjust parallax by first setting at the max(infinity stop) and dialing back until clear. Check cross hair movement by adjusting your eye up, down, side to side. If you see the cross hairs move at your target, then your parallax is out, re-adjust from 0 stop again.
Then, do a box test on your scope to ensure cross hairs are tracking. ie, shoot groups at 100m from 0, up 6 over 3 down 12 other way 12 up 6 over to center 6. You group should be back at 0. If it isn't....your scope goes back for warrantee or replacement.
Caveat, if your adjustment at sight in is maximizing the usable windage or elevation then you need to have a relook at the entire set up. A quick check by placing the scope ocular at low power against a mirror will identify whether your set up is is leading to the edge of adjustment. You will see two cross hairs. they should line up vertically. If one is way off bingo. (Way off would be 20moa or more 5 moa is within reason if the rings are not lapped or aligned.) This can impair your scopes ability to perform. Having a centered scope to the bore is a challenge if your bases or rings are not aligned to the bore (do some research on this, lots a good info on the net) If not comfortable seek a professional to help in centering your scope. Do this first before you waste any more ammo.
My 2c
Click to expand...

I have a 20 MOA Badger base. After sight in, and setting zero stop I end up with about 26 MRAD of elevation remaining before I top out. That seems to be more than enough. Thoughts?
 
Vertical adjustment is not the only indicator for centering a scope. But your windage is the indicator of where your rectical is centered. If you are significantly left or right windage it can affect things. I once had a scope maxed out on windage and upon taking a shot it would bump out of adjustment. You can check using the mirror method or by dialing your scope to 0. but if you have it already sighted in then that is why I suggested using a mirror.

I also had a maxed out scope for which the side parallax knob did not adjust and actually bumped the recticle. Bad news. So use the mirror to give you a quick indication of whether your set up is 0 to the bore. Worth the re-sight in in order to guage this info.

Also, if you have too much windage set when 0 it can affect how your parallax adjustment. the little arm that moves your internals to set parallax are limited when you have too much windage dialed in. That is why it is critical to have your scope centered to achieve the optimum out of your scope. Details little known by store practitioners or home hobbyists..myself included until I learned it. Elky...
 
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Do the adjustment things mentioned above. Check all the screws and bolts etc just to make sure. If no better result swap back to the Sightron and idnetifiy very accurate ammo. Then swap back the scopes and retest. If the Vortex is still giving bigger groups then the scope is the problem.

I have had more issues with the scopes themselves over the years than ammo or rifles. I have had Nighforce, March and Leupold all fail and had to be returned for rebuild. Most of the time they present issues such as yours. Bigger groups than you would think should be.
 
longarm21 said:
So I decide to upgrade my scope and go with a Vortex Razor HD Gen 1 5-20x50 MRAD EBR2. Great glass, looks good. Solid as heck. Clicks are bang on. What I can`t figure out is why my groups opened up to .8 - 1.5 MOA at 100m. 3 would be touching, and two would throw high to the right of the group not touching. I`m a little lost.


Possible factors:
Ammo - I used a batch of Nosler Accubond which I have never shot out of this rifle. 165 gr.
Click to expand...


Lol, seriously ?
 
longarm21 said:
Yes seriously at 100m I would hope that even Nosler Accubonds would group sub moa with this gun.
Click to expand...

You can't assume that.

Go back to the load you know the gun shoots well with. Otherwise you're going in circles here.

And no scope has accurate parallax numbers/has marks. Use them as reference or rough measurement, but never assume correct.
 
Watch your torque settings on your rings. Most scope manufacturers have a very specific torque setting that needs to be adhered to. This number is much lower than what most people would think, the old days of cranking on the wrenches until there is no more thread movement are gone. Check the torque setting to be sure, but I would bet it is below 20 inch pounds.
 
The most basic thing we should all know or learn is that all loads/bullets need to be 'developed' for each rifle they are being used in. You may get lucky off the start, but 99/100 times you have to tweak the load for max accuracy in a given rifle.
If shooting factory, they all perform different. Some may spray, some may shoot MOA, some maybe 1/2 MOA - the only way you'll know is to try with that rifle, not expect it just because you shoot a Barnes, Berger, Nosler, Sierra, etc bullet. So,times the cheapest blue box shoot the best....sometimes the $80 box stuff shoots the worst...you never know till you try!
Don't mean to sound harsh, but its a well known fact amongst people who have searched for accuracy in their rifles.
 
longarm21 said:
Possible factors:
Ammo - I used a batch of Nosler Accubond which I have never shot out of this rifle. 165 gr.
Click to expand...

This right here.

Without proper load development, I would never expect a gun to shoot as well as a known load.

I would fathom a guess to say that the scope, in this case, is not the problem.
 
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