Lead free indoor handgun range?

[Alex1911]

Try and open an outdoor range 40 minutes outside of Toronto. I know it's a huge hurdle and most likely impossible......

Yes there are noise by laws in most municipalities that only excempt farm or shooting club activities for outdoor shoots. Anything in the city needs to be indoor to be able to control noise pollution. So yes anything outdoor will most likely be impossible. For indoor Toronto is the only local city restricting new indoor ranges and gun stores following an incident.

Edit: if we were considering an outdoor facility we wouldn't have any concerns over lead and air quality/health and saftey for employees/customers.

 

[Alex1911]

As an aside,please, someone NEEDS to do this. The traffic at Silverdale is getting ridiculous! What is located on the North East aspect of Toronto? There must be some allowances between Toronto and Peterborough?

It's very close to Toronto. I can't disclose the location yet since I don't want to spark local community out cry before we finish construction and get CFO approval for a licenced range. We are using a building previously occupied from my other business before we moved to a new location, the site is free hold with large parking lot buffer and fully enclosed by security fencing we used to secure our trucks and equipment. So noise will not be and issue, only issue that might happen could be with the building owner not condoning filling his building full of lead. There is also a chance he won't know the risks of just won't care since the next stop for the building would most likely be tear down and redovelopment.

 

[Alex1911]

The North York Police range on Rutherford is wall to wall (about 10 positions) wet range.

The NRA range in Washington is even wider, about 20 positions, wet Savage Snail range.

if you want a lead - free range, use a wet trap so that 99% of the lead is kept in a big lump. The air system takes care of the primer fumes.

The 'wet" is flowing water down the steel plate. the bullets skip off the water/plate without generating any airborne lead. The water has an additive to stop it from going rancid. The bullets drop into a long basket. A waste metal company pays to collect the lead. because the lead lumps are dust free, it is not considered hazardous material.

I suggest you phone Savage and see what they offer today.

Yes we are interested in their big mouth trap or manufacturing our own. I have access to an engineer, fabricators and welders. The simplicity of their design trumps anything we've seen other then rubber berms. It's pretty much 3 frames covered in ar500, only trickier part would be the decel chamber and access to a brake press that can bend ar500 into a cylinder, they wet delivery system and trough are by far the simplest design I've seen compared to the HVAC dependent traps that need huge CFM and ducting for each lane.

 

[owlowl]

It's very close to Toronto.

Well, I, for one, am looking forward to see it

 

[plinker 777]

It's very close to Toronto. I can't disclose the location yet since I don't want to spark local community out cry before we finish construction and get CFO approval for a licenced range. We are using a building previously occupied from my other business before we moved to a new location, the site is free hold with large parking lot buffer and fully enclosed by security fencing we used to secure our trucks and equipment. So noise will not be and issue, only issue that might happen could be with the building owner not condoning filling his building full of lead. There is also a chance he won't know the risks of just won't care since the next stop for the building would most likely be tear down and redovelopment.

Let me know how I can help your advertising campaign when you're up and running...

 

[easyrider604]

Not saying there would be a problem but if a range wanted me to sign a waiver I'd get tested after shooting for awhile

Maybe I will do the test. Re-waivers: Properly advised companies will always cover their behinds, aka CYB, with all sorts of waivers. Surgeons and hospitals do that all the time before any procedure to help prevent malpractice suits. Very few bad things happen during surgeries yet the waivers need to be signed off. I know the ventilation at DVC indoor range works as I can feel the difference in air pressure going in and out of the airlock into the lanes. I believe shooting at DVC is safer than at a covered outdoor range where airborne particles can linger on calm days.

 

[L1911]

lead free ammo, last time I checked was way too expensive compared to lead bullets. So, where are incentives to use lead free ? Even the polymer type ammo were over-priced.

 

[Slavex]

We looked at both the Savage and the Action Target systems, pricing, warranty and other guarantees of performance from Action made us choose them for our proposed indoor range at Abby. We investigated a number of options including building the backstop ourselves, and in the end it was cheaper and more cost effective to stick with Action.
Every single "in house designed and fabricated" backstop I've seen has had major issues ending up costing the range more money and down time in the end.

 

[ESP]

Target Sports has $600-ish membership fee. A lot of people find that excessive.

Sounds like price gouging due to demand.

Cost prohibitive, ammo availability appear to be the hurdles for lead free range.
Pass the obstacles and it's a good idea.

 

[Slavex]

$600 a year for a modern, indoor shooting facility is a decent price. People pay more gym memberships, I really don't get why people ##### about range memberships

 

[Galt]

$600 a year for a modern, indoor shooting facility is a decent price. People pay more gym memberships, I really don't get why people ##### about range memberships

Gyms have showers and lockers and lounge facilities. Most clubs charging 600 per year have a toilet and a sink.

 

[silverfoxdj]

Maybe I will do the test. Re-waivers: Properly advised companies will always cover their behinds, aka CYB, with all sorts of waivers. Surgeons and hospitals do that all the time before any procedure to help prevent malpractice suits. Very few bad things happen during surgeries yet the waivers need to be signed off. I know the ventilation at DVC indoor range works as I can feel the difference in air pressure going in and out of the airlock into the lanes. I believe shooting at DVC is safer than at a covered outdoor range where airborne particles can linger on calm days.

Personally I think your are wise if you do and check with some long time shooters there to see if they have elevated readings, it's not a macho thing

 

[Ian Robertson]

I belong to a club that has an indoor range that they have decided will be lead free. I have never shot on it and any time I have been there (non snow/winter) shooting outdoors it has never been in use. The backstop is the venetian blind type. Bullets can be lead but must be encapsulated, this will prevent lead vapour from firing but they are still allowed to smash into the back stop and they are not concerned with this. 22 is not allowed for the reasons already stated above. Lead free primers are impossible to find in Canada although I did give up looking about 8 months ago. Primers actually contain an infinitesimal amount of lead, enough to be ignored in most situations, as per www.ssusa.org/media/1533525/1014_ssusa_archive.pdf very interesting info. Lead free is fine but everything should be kept in perspective, deal with the facts and not the hearsay. Sounds to me that decent air handling at the line with encapsulated bullets and regular primers with a wet trap is the most obvious way to go. Loaders can do powder coat or buy plated.

Forgot to mention, every few years I get tested for lead when doing normal blood work. In at least Ontario it's free with a req from your doctor. Never had a problem.

 

[Denisb]

Justice Institute of BC has an indoor range they don't use because of lead contamination. Sending them an email is probably a good way to find out exactly what you're dealing with.

 

[guess_kto]

Would I spend anything on lead-free or gun-free range? The answer is no.

Most bullets have lead (not just cast), FMJ has lead base and filler, most common bullet now is plated lead bullets, etc.

99% of the issues can be fixed with proper venting system and daily clean up, e.g. wet cleaning of the floors.

 

[guess_kto]

PS. No steel targets, so bullets go into filler, then into backstop and stay there. Shoot paper, be happy, don't get wet... LOL

 

[Ganderite]

Justice Institute of BC has an indoor range they don't use because of lead contamination. Sending them an email is probably a good way to find out exactly what you're dealing with.

I advised them when they were planning that their plans would not work. They insisted that cheap was good.

Six months after they opened the Range Officer was in the hospital with severe lead poisoning.

I advised two other ranges to use the Savage Snail wet trap. They went with rubber, because it was cheaper. I warned them of the fire hazard. Both ranges burned down when the rubber caught fire. (I know of two other ranges in USA that burned, too.)

Advising gov't agencies is difficult because the procurement budget source is different than the operating budget source. The buyer does not care that the range will be impossible to operate.

 

[Slavex]

the wet trap is a massive pain in the ass, fine for large government agencies or well funded private clubs that can afford it. The Action design has a separate vacuum system on the trap to pull out the dust generated by the bullets hitting the plate. Much simpler, and easier to work with, and cheaper too.

 

[Balance]

Yes we are interested in their big mouth trap or manufacturing our own. I have access to an engineer, fabricators and welders. The simplicity of their design trumps anything we've seen other then rubber berms. It's pretty much 3 frames covered in ar500, only trickier part would be the decel chamber and access to a brake press that can bend ar500 into a cylinder, they wet delivery system and trough are by far the simplest design I've seen compared to the HVAC dependent traps that need huge CFM and ducting for each lane.

I have very good connections to a large state of the art all service steel manufacturing plant. PM me if you need steel/steel maufacturing.

 

[Alex1911]

lead free ammo, last time I checked was way too expensive compared to lead bullets. So, where are incentives to use lead free ? Even the polymer type ammo were over-priced.

It seems that way for consumers buying a box or 2 form retailers who deal primarily in conventional rounds.

There is no reason for it to cost much more. 1 lb of lead costs .84c and 1lb of copper is $2. So for a box of 9mm at 7.5g per round the copper should increase material cost about 1.20$ per 50 round box. With a difference like this copper most likely wouldn't be a deal beaker for most shooter and was why I wanted to contact some of the manfactures who already specialize in copper. Before I took the time to contact all these companies I wanted to make sure people would use it.

I know with hunting rifles there are some accuracy issues people are complaining about in California but this can also be people just upset with the price gouging going on there for their hunting rounds. In the handgun market the opposite is true and better accuracy and less barrel fouling occurs. The barrel fouling from copper can be cleaned with a 1 or 2 passes with a barrel brush typically and reduced accuracy due to fouling at around starts at around 500 rounds fired. The primary reason for increased accuracy in handguns is due to slightly longer bullet for same weight as lead which increases flight stability and no pressure deformations like non jacketed lead.

Copper is more prevalent in the handgun market due to use as self defense rounds and there are several large manfactures I'm aware of. I know of some military suppliers as well but don't know if they also supply ranges of military only, if they do they would probably have the best prices considering they are already pumping beer out by the truck load for the US army.

These were my initial thought on exploring this option if for minimal cost can dramatically improve air quality and facility clean up it can be worth it. Dealing with cleaning the traps would be much cheaper and would save from potential health and saftey violations, potential employee lawsuits if they got sick ect.

I wouldn't be interested though if vs costing 1-2$ extra per 50 round box it was 10$ per box, but strictly going by what it should cost 2$ seems fair.