On the Cleaning of Brass

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Grawfr

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Gents,

I've been reading my manuals, and looked at many, many threads on this forum. And that brought me a couple questions:

I see some reloaders clean their brass before resizing/decapping (so as not to damage the die, that makes perfect sense). But then they clean it again after resizing/decapping to remove the lubricant and clean the primer pocket. So here's the two questions this brings to mind:

1. Doesn't that defeat the whole point of using a progressive press? If I insert a 60 minutes cleaning session in between the resize/decap and the cap/powder/seat/crimp stages, or even if I clean the primer pockets manually, might as well use a single stage press to do the job because it cancels the best feature (simultaneous operations) of the progressive presses, no?

In other words, does it mean people using a progressive press are not usually cleaning the primer pockets?

2. So how critical is that primer pocket cleaning, anyways? I've read the manuals: sure, for laser-beam-Olympic-mile-sniper-accuracy it's certainly desirable to have a pristine pocket and flash hole to ensure uniform priming of the powder... but what the manuals aren't saying is: "how much of difference does it actually make"? Relatively speaking, am I looking at 0.5 MOA from a dirty primer pocket or 0.00005 MOA?

Could anyone that shot with both clean and unclean primer pockets in the same brass chime in on this?


I'm beginning to see why precision shooters aren't using progressive presses: with all the extra operations they do (chamfer, debur, pocket cleaning, case trimming, mouth truing and/or thinning, annealing, weighting of individual powder charges), there's no point at all. I can also see them making only a dozen rounds an hour, too... which is a mite too slow to my tastes! ;)

Thankee in advance for the feedback


(BTW, great sale on a workbench at CT this week, $160 rather than $300 for a heavy (200 lbs) 2-drawers bench with pegboard! :) ).
 
People like myself that deprime, then clean, then load, following most or all of the steps you listed load in "batches". I will deprime a large batch of brass, then tumble it. It is now ready for reloading.

When I load, I use imperial sizing wax so a quick wipe removes the lube.

My steps are as follows. Roughly anyway

Deprime
tumble in SS pins
size in a batch
trim, chamfer, deburr etc...in a batch
wipe down or tumble a bit in a vibratory
prime in a batch
charge and seat bullet in a batch


when using a progressive I use a home made spray lube, removing the need to wipe each case with lube, or wipe it off. However I deprime and tumble ALL my brass prior to reloading, it gives me an extra step or two to inspect it as well. Once loaded I sometimes briefly tumble it in a vibratory tumbler with corn cob to remove the lanolin.
 
People who clean twice, like me, are generally not using a progressive. For bulk loading on a turret, SS pin tumbling is popular. Works very well and can do large quantities in one go. They generally deprime, sometimes on a separate single stage, clean, and than do everything else on the progressive.

I use a primer pocket uniformer to scrap out the worst of the carbon in the primer pocket without touching the brass. I find this results in cleaner brass after a dunk in the ultrasonic.
However, I sincerely doubt you will see a measureable difference in precision for clean vs dirty pockets.
 
I tumble my pistol brass once for my progressive as pistol rounds are not affected as precision is not required.

for rifle i use a single stage, and tumble twice
 
Other than for serious long-range competition, cleaning primer pockets is more of a "feel-good" exercise than a "necessary" exercise.

I have been loading for near 50 years now, and I don't bother cleaning the pockets on hunting or plinking ammo. For 1000 yard competition, I still do.

I tumble my brass, lube [Imperial sizing wax] size, wipe dry, and load up.

Regards, Dave.
 
My approach to case cleaning is as follows:

1. Pistol cases get tumbled in SS media without depriming prior to loading.
2. Rifle cases are washed in hot soapy water to remove any debris prior to resizing. After sizing, cases are tumbled in SS media to remove lube and for final polish. I'm not convinced that there is any value in cleaning primer pockets, but I get them without going out of my way with this process.

This is how I reload rifle ammo on a progressive press:
1. First pass resizes and deprimes the case only. I prefer to use a Lyman M die in station 2 to expand necks instead of an expander ball on the sizing die, as it cuts down on case growth. A progressive press allows me to do these two operations simultaneously. Cases are then trimmed and/or primer pockets reamed if necessary.
2. Second pass starts with prepped cases. Station 1 has a decapping die to catch any media that might be caught in primer pockets. Cases are primed, powder dropped, and bullet seated. A separate crimp stage may also be added if desired.

While it is a much slower process than loading pistol ammunition, you can still make rifle ammo on a progressive much faster than you can on a single stage.
 
It might help to indicate the type of ammo you want to make and application.

I have 3 procedures... bulk 223 for my AR, bulk HG, and then match ammo.

each caters to the needs and tries to min work/steps but maximise results.

So I don't believe one size fits all.

Jerry
 
Rifle cases gets 2x tumbling due to removing sizing lube. Yeah, kinda defeats using the progressive press. For pistol cases, deprime and tumble then everything else is on the progressive.
 
Thanks everyone!.

I agree with you Mystic, but there was little point in specifying the type of ammo because my desire is precisely to find the most "one size fits all" solution before I get into costly purchases, so I'm weighting pros and cons of all presses for all purposes. I'm planning to acquire more firearms, but I can't say what calibers yet. Likely a lever action in magnum pistol caliber, and quite possibly a Benelli MR-1 as a precision shooter/varmint hunter (yes, I know... I mean "as precise as something that's not bolt action can be", lol!). And a bolt action is not out of the realm of possibles, either.

Basically, I'm like everyone: I want it all! The press should do 9mm and .223 and .308, must provide consistent and precise powder throw weight and do everything fast. It will help if it makes coffee and cleans the bench during the night too. :)

I want to do some load development for my Cx4 in 9mm. That's because I believe that commercial ammo, designed with fast-burning powder to be shot out of a 5" barrel, could be seriously improved in performance when shot out of a 19 3/4", 1-in-10 twist barrel. The thing is, I have to balance muzzle velocity, bullet weight, powder burning rate, cartridge OAL, case load density, etc... and for all I know, what color the case looks best in the morning and what key it likes to sing... I'm still learning.

While the Cx4 is rated to +P, the last thing I want to do is put extreme peak pressures on its chamber: even if my pretty baby doesn't blow up in my face, the wear and tear will be horrendous. Also, it's a straight blowback semi-auto, so I can't use too reduced a load or a burn rate so slow the action won't fully cycle. All in all, I expect the acceptable parameters for the load to be quite restrictive.

But once I have a load I'm happy with, though, I want my press to be able to make it without needing me to stroke the one-armed-pig for endless days of toil. ;)


For more precise shooting beyond 50m though, I'll likely get the Benelli in .223: the 9mm just isn't the right bullet for the job, I know.
 
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I use lnl ap press.

I only clean my brass if its covered in crap (pistol), I dont clean primer pockets any more and after 5 years reloading its made no difference at all.

I clean my dies with Hornady 1 shot gun cleaner/lube every 1000 rounds, and after 5 years of reloading have not had any probs.

You can spend hours cleaning, making sure everything shines, and thats fine, but for its not been necessary.

For rifle i use my single stage press and use hornday spray on case lube and then each round (i usually make 20-40 rounds) is run though paper towl.
 
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Grawfr said:
Thanks everyone!.

I agree with you Mystic, but there was little point in specifying the type of ammo because my desire is precisely to find the most "one size fits all" solution before I get into costly purchases, so I'm weighting pros and cons of all presses for all purposes. I'm planning to acquire more firearms, but I can't say what calibers yet. Likely a lever action in magnum pistol caliber, and quite possibly a Benelli MR-1 as a precision shooter/varmint hunter (yes, I know... I mean "as precise as something that's not bolt action can be", lol!). And a bolt action is not out of the realm of possibles, either.

Basically, I'm like everyone: I want it all! The press should do 9mm and .223 and .308, must provide consistent and precise powder throw weight and do everything fast. It will help if it makes coffee and cleans the bench during the night too. :)

I want to do some load development for my Cx4 in 9mm. That's because I believe that commercial ammo, designed with fast-burning powder to be shot out of a 5" barrel, could be seriously improved in performance when shot out of a 19 3/4", 1-in-10 twist barrel. The thing is, I have to balance muzzle velocity, bullet weight, powder burning rate, cartridge OAL, case load density, etc... and for all I know, what color the case looks best in the morning and what key it likes to sing... I'm still learning.

While the Cx4 is rated to +P, the last thing I want to do is put extreme peak pressures on its chamber: even if my pretty baby doesn't blow up in my face, the wear and tear will be horrendous. Also, it's a straight blowback semi-auto, so I can't use too reduced a load or a burn rate so slow the action won't fully cycle. All in all, I expect the acceptable parameters for the load to be quite restrictive.

But once I have a load I'm happy with, though, I want my press to be able to make it without needing me to stroke the one-armed-pig for endless days of toil. ;)


For more precise shooting beyond 50m though, I'll likely get the Benelli in .223: the 9mm just isn't the right bullet for the job, I know.
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Then you are going to have a miserable time and likely never find any "does it all" solutions.

tools are built to do a job. use the tools that suit your needs and the costs that make sense. As nice as a Swiss army knief is, a stand alone tool will always do any specific job better.

To increase speed, you add more money.

The key is to start... as you learn, you will see what you like and don't and where you want to improve or change. I have been reloading for over 20yrs... tried a bunch of stuff. Some I have kept, others have moved on.

The big question is what is your budget. Given the dollar, that is going to limit options right quick.

PM or email if you want some specific help to source a start up set of tools.

Jerry
 
Only thing I notice when cleaning the primer pocket, is when I chrony the rounds. They are a slight bit more consistent, and I mean slight
 
Mystic Precision said:
The big question is what is your budget. Given the dollar, that is going to limit options right quick.
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Thanks, I'm pretty good information sources (started seriously reading a couple months ago, got me Lyman's, Hornady's, ABC's and several online sites, not to mention all the nutz here). In some ways, budget is not really a consideration: my first criteria is effectiveness, as in "Will it do what I need it to do?". My second criteria is efficiency, as in "Will it do it with the minimum reasonable need for time and effort"? Given that the equipment will end up being used for decades (Inch'Shaytan!), the cost comes in only in a distant third place for me.

Mind you, that doesn't mean getting all the luxury bells and whistles and options and upgrades I don't actually need. I'm not looking to make loads for the mile-long-snipe, I'm not looking to make 10k bullets a year, I'm simply trying to improve (not maximize!) the accuracy of my run-of-the-mill unmodified very average firearms without rebuiding them with new barrels, bedding, trigger groups, harmonic dampers, rangefinders, BDC computers, weather station, self-guiding bullets, etc... And the economy of reloading are of course figuring large in my thinking. I expect the complete initial setup to cost me about $1200-$1500, plus or minus a large fudge factor.

Basically, if I'm going to do it, I want to do it right the first time: I don't want to buy a complete kit then find myself upgrading half of it again because it was too limited in either capability or quality. Cry once, right? :)
 
Give me a PM or email... I fully understand what you are saying. With your budget and some careful planning, no reason to not have pretty much everything you need to cover a huge range of loading options.

Just firm up what type of ammo you want to focus on...

There are no kits I would suggest to you... pick and choose better gear to cover the needs. All manf make some good stuff... No manf makes the best of everything.

Priorities and goals will help you get a nice assortment of stuff. And as your goals change, so will your gear... this will not be a static list of stuff.

Jerry

PS with any factory rifle, proper bedding will go a long ways to improve its performance.
 
Now you got me idly curious: is it even possible to bed a Cx4 or a lever action rifle? Every bedding case I've seen was for a bolt action with a long forestock. IDLY curious, I said... not planning to do a single thing. :)
 
Eagleye said:
Other than for serious long-range competition, cleaning primer pockets is more of a "feel-good" exercise than a "necessary" exercise.

I have been loading for near 50 years now, and I don't bother cleaning the pockets on hunting or plinking ammo. For 1000 yard competition, I still do.

I tumble my brass, lube [Imperial sizing wax] size, wipe dry, and load up.

Regards, Dave.
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Other than not ever shooting a 1000 yards in my life, i could have written Dave's post.

Actually if in doubt about most anything reloading just search his post history. One of about 6 guys on this forum that have forgotten more than i know.
 
Grawfr said:
Now you got me idly curious: is it even possible to bed a Cx4 or a lever action rifle? Every bedding case I've seen was for a bolt action with a long forestock. IDLY curious, I said... not planning to do a single thing. :)
Click to expand...

Was refering to the generic bolt action rifle but some improvements can be add in many other forms of long arm.

Some designs will be limited by nature of how it is put together but others, like the AR and M1A/M305 take to proper set up very nicely

And it also depends on the type of chamber and quality of barrel you are blessed with. Without a radical rebuild will an SKS be ever considered an accurate rifle.

So you take each rifle, decide what is important and do the steps to help it along.

I prefer to set up the rifle to give the best chance of accuracy before wasting time and effort on expensive components to reload.

But if all you want is functional ammo to suit XYZ... that is a great reason to reload too.

Jerry
 
I asked this same question recently. A good friend of mine who has reloaded for 50 years and has probably loaded more cases in different calibres than most of us ever will said that for the first 15 years or so he never cleaned his brass at all. Nowadays he sometimes cleans some of it, but never cleans the primer pockets. He says he doesn't notice any difference with reliability either way.
 
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