Budget Glass; Range in Meters

fiftycalforsquirrels

fiftycalforsquirrels

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What is a decent budget scope with MOA turrets and MOA hash reticle? Super high mag not required and SFP is good enough. Mil/Mil seems to be more budget and MOA/MOA seems to only be options on higher end scopes.

Also, are there scopes that are per 100 meters or am I stuck with doing the conversions for meters to yards and then moa per 109ish yards?
 
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legi0n said:
1 MOA at 100m is 2.9cm or 29mm (1mm under 30)
1 MOA at 100y is 1.047 inches (1mm over 1 inch)

neither is a whole number
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Mathematically that is correct.

I misworded my original question a little bit. What I was meaning to ask was are there scopes that are 1/4" per 100 yards, and 1/4" per 100 meters.

Which brings me to another question... Are scopes turrets in 1/4 MOA per 100 yards/meters or 1/4" per 100 yards/meters? My scope says 1 click 1/4" @ 100 yards... but I've seen scopes marketed as 1/4 MOA per 100.

Ultimately if it's in MOA then it doesn't really make it any simpler by having a scope in per yards or meters... but I was initially under the impression the clicks were in 1/4" measure. Which would make the math a little more simple if at a range that was in meters and one had a per meter scope, or vice versa.
 
I doubt you will find a non-custom scope with 1/4" at 100m clicks
You see, most metric countries don't know/want/like to use inches
 
Just stick with 1/4" per click at 100y/m. It's close enough, as the error would be like 0.05" over each minute at 100y vs 100m.

BTW the value scopes come in moa/moa while most high end come in mil/mil or moa/mil or moa/moa you specify what you want.
 
legi0n said:
I doubt you will find a non-custom scope with 1/4" at 100m clicks
You see, most metric countries don't know/want/like to use inches
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Fair enough.

bsand said:
Just stick with 1/4" per click at 100y/m. It's close enough, as the error would be like 0.05" over each minute at 100y vs 100m.

BTW the value scopes come in moa/moa while most high end come in mil/mil or moa/mil or moa/moa you specify what you want.
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MOA/MOA scopes I have come across start at about $800+... Maybe I'm not looking hard enough. While I have found mil/mil scopes for around $400.

I'd like to find a moa/moa scope in the $3-500 range.
 
The Redfield Revolution TAC 3-9X40 is under $400. It has 1/4 min target turrets, and an MOA hash reticle. I borrowed one to try on my Swiss at last years BCRA Service Rifle Provincials, and it was great. It is made in the states by Leupold, and for what you get it's a good deal I think. I also found that using the reticle for hold overs instead of dialling the turrets perfectly matched the DOPE sheet come ups. There is no parralax adjustment, but it seemed to work great on a .223 rifle out to 500m
 
bsand said:
Sightron sii tac hhr reticle 1/4 moa per click.
http://info.sightron.com/Riflescopes/SII-Series/SII416x42HHR/

http://www.hirschprecision.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=102_135&products_id=1595
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Sightron seems to be coming up a lot in research. I haven't really seen anything bad said about them though mostly only read things about the SIII stuff...which is pretty much a G-note scope. Not too many reviews out there for the SII stuff. On paper they look like good scopes. Have you used Sightron optics? How do they compare dollar for dollar to other scopes?

That HHR reticle seems interesting but I don't know how useful it would be for hold overs and ranging would be a bit of a guessing game.

Tenguns said:
The Redfield Revolution TAC 3-9X40 is under $400. It has 1/4 min target turrets, and an MOA hash reticle. I borrowed one to try on my Swiss at last years BCRA Service Rifle Provincials, and it was great. It is made in the states by Leupold, and for what you get it's a good deal I think. I also found that using the reticle for hold overs instead of dialling the turrets perfectly matched the DOPE sheet come ups. There is no parralax adjustment, but it seemed to work great on a .223 rifle out to 500m
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Ya, redfield seems to be the only company offering a 'budget' moa-hash reticled scope. Not sure if I want a scope w/out parallax adjustment.

Might have to wait a bit and crank my budget up to a grand... lots of scopes in that price range... haha
 
fiftycalforsquirrels said:
What is a decent budget scope with MOA turrets and MOA hash reticle? Super high mag not required and SFP is good enough. Mil/Mil seems to be more budget and MOA/MOA seems to only be options on higher end scopes.

Also, are there scopes that are per 100 meters or am I stuck with doing the conversions for meters to yards and then moa per 109ish yards?
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Ohh boy, lots to address here...

Firstly, you seem to be a little confused about what a Miliradian means. 1 Miliradian is one thousandth of a radian, and one radian is the angle subtended at the center of a circle by an arc that is equal in length to the radius of the circle. If the range is in meters, the best option really is a mil/mil scope. 1 Milliradian = 10cm @ 100m. Most scopes will adjust by 0.1 Mils, or 1cm @ 100m. On a metric range, Milliradians are the only way to go, and they're easy to use on ranges measured in yards too, as 1 miliradian = 3.6" @ 100 yards.

Second, many high end scopes are only available in mils, and anything designed for military use will be in mils. Mil/Mil and MOA/MOA don't indicate the quality of the scope. Both low end and high end scopes are available with both combinations of reticule and turret. The other common type is a mil-dot reticule (or other mil based reticule) on a scope with MOA turrets (Elite Tactical, some versions of the Leupold Mark 4 series, etc.).

Third, a scope in IPHY (inches per hundred yards) is much less common than either MOA or Mils, though some Redfields, Weavers and I believe a few US optics scopes are available with this turret configuration. I would stay away from it as it is not a unit of angular measurement.

Finally, if you're on a budget, I would skip features such as adjustable parallax in order to get a better built scope. If you can up your budget to around $1000, both Sightron and Vortex have some good options in the SIII and Viper PST series, respectively.
 
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Why would you need to do any converting? I think you'd be hard pressed to find any ballistic calculator that won't let you pick yards or meters.
 
fiftycalforsquirrels said:
What is a decent budget scope with MOA turrets and MOA hash reticle? Super high mag not required and SFP is good enough. Mil/Mil seems to be more budget and MOA/MOA seems to only be options on higher end scopes.

Also, are there scopes that are per 100 meters or am I stuck with doing the conversions for meters to yards and then moa per 109ish yards?
Click to expand...


If you have a variable power second focal plane mil-dot scope with MOA adjustments; you already have MOA/MOA scope, you just don't know it yet.

One mil is 3.6" at 100 yards and 4 MOA is 4.18". Not much you can do to make the reticle spacing bigger, but you sure can make the target smaller and that amounts to the same thing. All you have to do is turn the power down the proper amount and the reticle is now 4 MOA.

Mathematically the correction ratio is 3.6/4.18 = .86 so if you multiply your milling magnification by .86 it will give you your "MOAing" power. On the 8.5 to 25 Mark 4 in my hand that works out to 21.5 X. Trouble is, there is no 21.5 X mark on the power ring and this plan would also require that you believe the numbers on the knob in the first place. A better plan is to not believe anything you can't prove; so construct a 4 MOA target at a good distance and crank the power ring until it is properly bracketed. If that setting doesn't line up with an obvious mark on the ring make your own. There you go, 4 MOA spacing.

If you're like me, the next thought is "what is a 4 MOA spacing good for?". 'Course I feel like that about mildots too. Where it gets interesting is if you have a half Mil reticle, then you've just converted it to a 2 MOA reticle. That is very useful for measuring from the center of the target to the shot marker giving a easy windage correction to dial, or hold-over or windage holds.
 
Ar180shooter said:
Ohh boy, lots to address here

Firstly, you seem to be a little confused about what a Miliradian means. 1 Miliradian is one thousandth of a radian, and one radian is the angle subtended at the center of a circle by an arc that is equal in length to the radius of the circle. If the range is in meters, the best option really is a mil/mil scope. 1 Milliradian = 10cm @ 100m. Most scopes will adjust by 0.1 Mils, or 1cm @ 100m. On a metric range, Milliradians are the only way to go, and they're easy to use on ranges measured in yards too, as 1 miliradian = 3.6" @ 100 yards.
Click to expand...

Yes, I don't have the best grasp on what Mils are. The reason I want(ed) MOA is because I see what the number applies to a little more clearly either naturally, or by what I currently know. Naturally I think in inches feet and yards. I can calculate what a 1/4 moa is at 1, 2, 3, 400, 459... yards and if I am X inches low I can figure out the input on the dial more readily. But... the more I am exposed to people talking mils, cm's and meter's, and the more I read and begin to understand mils and how they relate to the angle and what their measurements are, the more I realize a mill isn't all that complicated.

I'm thinking I may be leaning towards a Mil/Mil scope now...

Second, many high end scopes are only available in mils, and anything designed for military use will be in mils. Mil/Mil and MOA/MOA don't indicate the quality of the scope. Both low end and high end scopes are available with both combinations of reticule and turret. The other common type is a mil-dot reticule (or other mil based reticule) on a scope with MOA turrets (Elite Tactical, some versions of the Leupold Mark 4 series, etc.).
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I wasn't saying the turret or reticle indicated the quality of the scope, more so I was saying I see cheaper scopes with the mil/mil option rather than the moa/moa being an option, and that higher end scopes were the ones that had the moa/moa as an option (and also mil/mil, or what ever)

Finally, if you're on a budget, I would skip features such as adjustable parallax in order to get a better built scope. If you can up your budget to around $1000, both Sightron and Vortex have some good options in the SIII and Viper PST series, respectively.
Click to expand...

What do you think the entry $ is for getting into a scope with parallax adjustment?

Alpheus said:
Why would you need to do any converting? I think you'd be hard pressed to find any ballistic calculator that won't let you pick yards or meters.
Click to expand...

I was thinking along the lines of if a scope is 1/4 moa at 100 yards, then it would be slightly more than a 1/4 moa at 100 meters so I would have to convert what 1/4 moa at 100 yards would be to what 1/4 moa would be at 100 meters. Though you bring up a good point. A ballistic calculator is going to pretty much have it figured out.

At 100 meters/yards it's not really a big deal... it'd be more for a longer range shot is where it would matter.

Dogleg said:
If you have a variable power second focal plane mil-dot scope with MOA adjustments; you already have MOA/MOA scope, you just don't know it yet.

One mil is 3.6" at 100 yards and 4 MOA is 4.18". Not much you can do to make the reticle spacing bigger, but you sure can make the target smaller and that amounts to the same thing. All you have to do is turn the power down the proper amount and the reticle is now 4 MOA.

Mathematically the correction ratio is 3.6/4.18 = .86 so if you multiply your milling magnification by .86 it will give you your "MOAing" power. On the 8.5 to 25 Mark 4 in my hand that works out to 21.5 X. Trouble is, there is no 21.5 X mark on the power ring and this plan would also require that you believe the numbers on the knob in the first place. A better plan is to not believe anything you can't prove; so construct a 4 MOA target at a good distance and crank the power ring until it is properly bracketed. If that setting doesn't line up with an obvious mark on the ring make your own. There you go, 4 MOA spacing.

If you're like me, the next thought is "what is a 4 MOA spacing good for?". 'Course I feel like that about mildots too. Where it gets interesting is if you have a half Mil reticle, then you've just converted it to a 2 MOA reticle. That is very useful for measuring from the center of the target to the shot marker giving a easy windage correction to dial, or hold-over or windage holds.
Click to expand...

Interesting way to look at it. I'll keep that in mind.
 
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