Yah, Glocks are cheaper.
Army Chief Wants Power to Select New Pistol
- Thread starter Thomas D'Arcy McGee
- Start date
Yah, Glocks are cheaper.
mmcintyre1220
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Tillsonburg, Ontario
Money is no object to the government! Didn't you know that already lol?
nah, just a geezer that thinks all plastic is the same as Bakelite in the 70s.
That pretty much sums it up. A tool that is carried far more than is used much like pistols for LEO's except for much harsher conditions for military. Many of the wonderful metal frame 92's suffered from cracked frames in the beginning. Metal can crack and break. I used to work with a guy we called Metal Fatigue for that reason.
Some here naïvely think that it would be so simple if the General just decided.
Even if the General got his way, it won't be the General who thinks about it for a few days and then personally makes the choice and does an online order with Cabelas. Just like is being done, he would form a committee with wide representation, and have to compromise because like "CGN Panels of Experts" who debate such things, he'd have the internal 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W, "Real Steel", Polymer, manufacturer preference, foreign or domestic and other camps to deal with. Then there'd be the requests for proposals, evaluation of proposals with extensive testing, followed by the award process under government rules to prevent bribery and fraud and other typical forms of crime that arise when this kind of money is involved. Would it be faster, cheaper and better? Maybe.
The General knows this. His agenda isn't obvious I think.
Even if the General got his way, it won't be the General who thinks about it for a few days and then personally makes the choice and does an online order with Cabelas. Just like is being done, he would form a committee with wide representation, and have to compromise because like "CGN Panels of Experts" who debate such things, he'd have the internal 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W, "Real Steel", Polymer, manufacturer preference, foreign or domestic and other camps to deal with. Then there'd be the requests for proposals, evaluation of proposals with extensive testing, followed by the award process under government rules to prevent bribery and fraud and other typical forms of crime that arise when this kind of money is involved. Would it be faster, cheaper and better? Maybe.
The General knows this. His agenda isn't obvious I think.
It is the logical choice. It meets 90% of the new list of demands and they can be aquired for much less the cost of purchasing a half million new pistols.
highlander
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Newfoundland
True, but they are also looking for a better round, and anything other than FMJ may not be an option, hence a change in caliber may be required.
GunsNotPuns
CGN frequent flyer
My thoughts as well though I was leaning to 10mm.
Johnny Flyswatter
Member
- Location
- Oromocto, NB
It is painful to watch procurement processes at work as it is a highly over-bureaucratized (sp?) process. Unfortunately, it is that way to eliminate personal preference/bias and ensure best product with best bang for $. Whether Canada or, apparently, the US, It is like this with more steps thrown in along the way because as the process evolves, new policies and procedures are implemented because someone, somewhere, managed to ride a fine line and skirt something he/she probably should not have, and a band-aid needs to be applied.
Therefore you see the processes that are laid out for us today as a result. Over-complicated, messy, and necessary...as much as I hate to say it. I do firmly believe (albeit never having experience in procurement so take it for what it is worth) that these processes do need to be reviewed every [insert logical amount of time here] in order to clean up and better streamline efficiencies. We need to adapt, but we can also try and apply the KISS rule to make it a less cumbersome and more manageable process.
Just my $0.02.
Interesting read though!
Therefore you see the processes that are laid out for us today as a result. Over-complicated, messy, and necessary...as much as I hate to say it. I do firmly believe (albeit never having experience in procurement so take it for what it is worth) that these processes do need to be reviewed every [insert logical amount of time here] in order to clean up and better streamline efficiencies. We need to adapt, but we can also try and apply the KISS rule to make it a less cumbersome and more manageable process.
Just my $0.02.
Interesting read though!
SIG P226, P229 and P224 for 9mm, .40 S&W and .357 SIG (and they can be converted by simply switching barrels) and P227 for .45. There's also a Carry version of the P227 with a 3.9 inch barrel.
That is, if there's something actually wrong M9/92FS that aren't a result of worn out pistols/parts not being serviced or replaced (or using ammo exceeding NATO specs, which caused the slide failures during testing).
I also find it hilarious to rag on the M9 for being "Cold War vintage" when its alternatives were introduced around the same time.
That is, if there's something actually wrong M9/92FS that aren't a result of worn out pistols/parts not being serviced or replaced (or using ammo exceeding NATO specs, which caused the slide failures during testing).
I also find it hilarious to rag on the M9 for being "Cold War vintage" when its alternatives were introduced around the same time.
ipscgraz
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The acquisition process could be sped up if you told 5 people to pick a round and have their decision by Friday noon. Once you have a caliber, find a pistol for it.
On that topic, there has been discussion that .40 is under loaded to reduce recoil...40 might be good but it would have to be loaded to a reasonable power factor. I also wonder why 9 X 21 or 9 X 23 or .38 Super isn't being considered. Can be loaded up to full heat and still retains the narrow width of the grip. As someone else mentioned, .357 Sig should not be discounted.
On that topic, there has been discussion that .40 is under loaded to reduce recoil...40 might be good but it would have to be loaded to a reasonable power factor. I also wonder why 9 X 21 or 9 X 23 or .38 Super isn't being considered. Can be loaded up to full heat and still retains the narrow width of the grip. As someone else mentioned, .357 Sig should not be discounted.
95% of the "issues" related to the M9 could be directly attributable to the decision to run 9mm Ball ammo, a notoriously bad man-stopper, and buying crappy magazines from the lowest bidder that $hit the bed when fielded in harsh desert climates where airborne sand and dust was a constant problem. There has been a veritable technological revolution in ammunition design over the past two decades, especially in 9mm that has exponentially increased its lethality. Problem one solved. The other can be rectified by purchasing quality magazines and surplusing current stocks of the junk mags.
I've heard from many U.S. military personnel that their small arm logistical system sucks, outside of special units, that parts don't get replaced when they're worn out and even frontline units that are deployed in a hot combat zone are often issued clapped out gear while the armorer mafia holds back the good stuff.
That the M9 and M-16 both seem to require an above average level of ongoing parts replacement doesn't help.
That the M9 and M-16 both seem to require an above average level of ongoing parts replacement doesn't help.
Johnny Flyswatter
Member
- Location
- Oromocto, NB
Okay...not to be argumentative but as soldiers b****ing is what we are good at, so I would not take everything you hear at face value. Also - I highly doubt soldiers are being dropped into combat zones where the leadership determines to accept the risk of putting them there without adequate means of self-defence. It would be when the soldiers stopped complaining that I would be scared 
Again - don't want to be argumentative so please don't take it that way.
Again - don't want to be argumentative so please don't take it that way.
How about they give a bunch of grade 12 students a school project. Give them a comprehensive list of criteria that the pistol must meet. Don't let them have any contact with manufacturers reps and let them have at it. Someone else can do ransome rest accuracy testing. Simple. It couldn't be any worse than the team that thought the Beretta PX-4 Storm pistol was the best choice for CBSA.
RememberTheSomme
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
PX-Storm with a 25 lb DA only pull weight. They want to make sure you really ,really, really mean to defend youself,......oops you're dead,.. too bad it took you so long to pull off that 25lb'er and then you missed clean no sheit batman
What he's asking for is the same practice that deprived US troops of the Lewis gun in WWI and gave them that piece of shat the Chauchat: generals playing favorites.
Now we have military bureaucrats spinning things along for years, the better to employ themselves and milk the manufacturers of future(?) largesse.
Which just goes to prove that there is no system you can design to produce good results from people who are lazy, stupid or corrupt. Those are problems to be addressed in the home and in elementary school.
Now we have military bureaucrats spinning things along for years, the better to employ themselves and milk the manufacturers of future(?) largesse.
Which just goes to prove that there is no system you can design to produce good results from people who are lazy, stupid or corrupt. Those are problems to be addressed in the home and in elementary school.
