Some wisdom needed on what rifle choice to make

Well, it took me all of 10 minutes to look up the regs in every province for "big game", which is generally Moose, Elk, Caribou, Deer and Bears (with Bison noted in BC) and here is "the actual restrictions" pulled right from the regs - none provided by a "guide" or "some guy who lives there":

Big Game Minimum Centerfire Caliber by Province:

BC – any caliber centerfire except for Bison (must use minimally 175 grain bullet that retains minimally 2000 foot pounds @ 100 meters)
AB – minimum .23 caliber centerfire
SK- minimum .23 caliber centerfire
MB- any caliber centerfire (“A centrefire rifle of .23 calibre or less is not recommended.”) but not prohibited.
ON – any caliber centerfire (if rifle hunting is permitted)
PQ – minimum 6 mm (.243) centerfire
NB – any caliber centerfire
NS – minimum .23 caliber centerfire
PEI – No Big Game Hunting
NL – minimum .23 caliber centerfire (minimum 100 grain bullet and must make 1500 ft pounds at the muzzle)

So a .243 is legal in "every province" that has big game (except for hunting Bison in BC).

In BC, Manitoba, Ontario, and New Brunswick you "could" use a 17 Hornet if you so chose to, to hunt big game according to "the regulations".
 
pisces-guy said:
That being said, if you're not wanting to severely limit your range to 100 yards or less, with the right ammo and a perfect shot, on deer, you'd be well advised to go with the .243. With 100 grain hunting bullets you can reach out to 200 yards or a bit over with the .243. The .22 calibres are marginal for deer hunting, but fine for pests.
Click to expand...

Stuff like this always makes me giggle...

Bullets, not headstamps. The bullet you use is MUCH more important than the case that propels it.
 
To the OP, you live on the Island and will be hunting blacktails? You go to Ontario occasionally, what will you be hunting there? Coyotes? Or deer?

A 223 in an acceptably fast twist (1 in 9 or faster) will spin deer appropriate bullets. Island deer are pretty small for the most part, and don't take a lot of killing. Put a bullet like a barnes ttsx or tsx, nosler partition, or the fantastic 64 gr soft point from Winchester factory rounds into a deers vitals and you'll be fine.

If you want more whump quotient go with a 243.

Regardless of which you choose, shoot it a lot. A 223 will see a LOT more rounds sent downrange, and by default you will get to be more proficient with it than you would with a 243, faster. That said, a 243 is a giant killer with the right bullets, and is easy to learn how to shoot.
 
no question, the 243, hands down! Please don't shoot deer with the 22 cals, no matter how good you think you are and how stupid your Prov laws are!
 
Well, in the last two weeks I've bought a pair of Montana's, and a Mountain Ascent, so I would say that "affording" isn't an issue of anything rifle related for me. I just find it humorous when guys have internet "knowledge" of what they *think* won't work.

Pretty sure the 22TTH (Texas Trophy Hunter, google it...) has accounted for several thousand deer by now. 22 centerfires are well accounted for around the world on deer sized game. Just because your province has a goofy law doesn't mean that the law is correct. Hell, some provinces don't allow hunting on Sundays, even WITH "decent deer rifles"......(grin)

And again, (this time I'll type it slower for you) Bullets. Matter. More. Than. Headstamps.
 
KodiakHntr said:
Well, in the last two weeks I've bought a pair of Montana's, and a Mountain Ascent, so I would say that "affording" isn't an issue of anything rifle related for me. I just find it humorous when guys have internet "knowledge" of what they *think* won't work.

Pretty sure the 22TTH (Texas Trophy Hunter, google it...) has accounted for several thousand deer by now. 22 centerfires are well accounted for around the world on deer sized game. Just because your province has a goofy law doesn't mean that the law is correct. Hell, some provinces don't allow hunting on Sundays, even WITH "decent deer rifles"......(grin)

And again, (this time I'll type it slower for you) Bullets. Matter. More. Than. Headstamps.
Click to expand...

Everything matters..... And everyone posts successes and few post failures.....

Bullets are a big part of the equation, I do agree..... So is velocity, accuracy etc.....

So why did you buy those rifles when you can harvest deer with a .223 reliably?

Do bullets matter more than head stamps?, maybe..... They certainly are important..... But you can't have one without the other.....

It is ridiculously easy to get a single lung shot..... Especially from an elevated platform....What size of hole would you prefer that lung has?..... And what level of hemmoraging do you want in your wound channel?....
 
Superbrad said:
Everything matters..... And everyone posts successes and few post failures.....

Bullets are a big part of the equation, I do agree..... So is velocity, accuracy etc.....

So why did you buy those rifles when you can harvest deer with a .223 reliably?

Do bullets matter more than head stamps?, maybe..... They certainly are important..... But you can't have one without the other.....

It is ridiculously easy to get a single lung shot..... Especially from an elevated platform....What size of hole would you prefer that lung has?..... And what level of hemmoraging do you want in your wound channel?....
Click to expand...

It's easy to post success, when you haven't had any failures....

And bullets are absolutely more important. To suggest otherwise is foolish. The bullet is the ONLY interaction that we have with a game animal in most cases (arrows and spears and knives are an exception). Accuracy and velocity are also important, but only in the relationship that you need enough velocity for reliable bullet upset, and enough retained velocity to reach vital organs. And you need enough accuracy to put it where it needs to go. The case that propels it is irrelevant if you have those things.

Why did I buy those rifles? You mean a pair of 280AI and a 7/08? Because deer aren't the only animals I hunt.... And I wanted to. And I like to try different rifles, in different cartridges, at different speeds. One of those will go grizzly hunting this spring stuffed with 150 tsx's, and I have zero doubt that it will perform admirably.

As to single lung pokes from elevated platforms, I have no experience around that. I've never shot a deer from a tree stand. Nor do I have any intention of it. I'm a ground hunter, be it whitetails, muleys, bears, elk, moose, or sheep, with a rifle, bow, or spear.

As to holes, is this one big enough? Nothing above the heart tube-wise.... Hole through both lungs, one of them mostly gone in little gooey chunks....



45 gr TSX ala 223 AI, at 3800fps muzzle velocity. 164 yards, bang flop. Muley roughly half again the size of an island blacktail. Certainly seemed adequate at the time.... Fairly certain that NOTHING else out there would have been more effective.

I would certainly prefer a 45 or 55 or 62 tsx at 3000 through 3600 fps from a 223 over a 58 gr vmax from a 243 at the 3500+ fps.

Bullets. More important than headstamps. Being able to put a bullet that will work for the intended job in the right place is more important than a bigger one in the wrong place. And I've yet to see anyone that can shoot a boomer better than they can shoot a mild recoiling rifle.

Precision over power.
 
Are you posting only success yourself?..... Have you never had a failure?..... If you haven't then you don't have enough experience.... Failures happen to the best of us....

The bullet is indeed the only interaction, but what is said bullet doing during that interaction?...... Is it tumbling, is it going in fast or slow?...... Is it designed to mushroom at the range it enters at? is it designed for a further range?.....

So much more at play than just bullet choice.....
 
I can't speak to anyone else's failures that I haven't seen first hand. I've not had a failure with a 22 cf. I did lose one muley, 26 or 27 years ago, to a 6mm and 100gr bullet. The hundreds of game animals since then, I guess I've just been lucky..... What number would make it "enough experience"? I figure I can speak to the subject at least on some level, having killed big game with arrows, spears, 22 rf, 22 cf, .24, .25, .26, .28, .308, .338, .375, and .45.

And I didn't say I've never had a bullet failure, just that appropriate bullets at appropriate speeds tend to work well.

Speaking to your point of design parameter's, I believe I already said that using a bullet appropriate to the job at hand....

I suppose if you are one of those people that gets all a flutter at the sight of an animal, and cranks out a shot as quickly as you can without regard to the distance, angle, or any of a myriad of other factors, then perhaps the OP needs a 458 win mag stuffed with 500's.

Myself though, I tend to not simply shoot at hair in the crosshairs, regardless of bullet or case implemented. I prefer to know where the bullet is headed before I squeeze the trigger. YMMV.

As to all of your points though, if a person gives even a modicum of thought to bullet choice, and understands from researching something from multiple avenue's, then all of your points are mitigated by bullet choice..... No?
 
KodiakHntr said:
I can't speak to anyone else's failures that I haven't seen first hand. I've not had a failure with a 22 cf. I did lose one muley, 26 or 27 years ago, to a 6mm and 100gr bullet. The hundreds of game animals since then, I guess I've just been lucky..... What number would make it "enough experience"? I figure I can speak to the subject at least on some level, having killed big game with arrows, spears, 22 rf, 22 cf, .24, .25, .26, .28, .308, .338, .375, and .45.

And I didn't say I've never had a bullet failure, just that appropriate bullets at appropriate speeds tend to work well.

Speaking to your point of design parameter's, I believe I already said that using a bullet appropriate to the job at hand....

I suppose if you are one of those people that gets all a flutter at the sight of an animal, and cranks out a shot as quickly as you can without regard to the distance, angle, or any of a myriad of other factors, then perhaps the OP needs a 458 win mag stuffed with 500's.

Myself though, I tend to not simply shoot at hair in the crosshairs, regardless of bullet or case implemented. I prefer to know where the bullet is headed before I squeeze the trigger. YMMV.

As to all of your points though, if a person gives even a modicum of thought to bullet choice, and understands from researching something from multiple avenue's, then all of your points are mitigated by bullet choice..... No?
Click to expand...

So what is a good 22 cal bullet for bigger game then? If you happen to hit the shoulder on a muley is there a bullet that will get in there? I had posted earlier about my bad experiences with a 22-250 on whitetails but that was 25 years ago and I'm sure I was just using whatever was handy. I will concede that bullets have come a long way.
 
Anything that Barnes makes will punch through a big muley's shoulders. The picture of the lungs that I hung up earlier, was a former girlfriends first buck, and I had her punch the front wheels intentionally with that 45 gr tsx. The outcome was never in doubt before the shot was taken.

I'm a very big fan of the 75 gr amax and have used and seen it used on big bodied northern deer, both muley's and whitetails. I've personally used them or seen them punched them through shoulders on whitetails and black bears, from 12 yards to a over 300 yards. I use this bullet extensively in a 223AI Montana, and have zero qualms using it within its limitations for deer sized game. Would I take a 490 yard shot on a 160" muley that is quartering away hard and moving at a trot? Probably not. I'd use one of my big rifles for that shot....Like a 243AI and 105 amax.....



But to the OP, if you are primarily hunting small deer around home, pick a rifle that fits you well, and shoot it a lot. Get GOOD with it through lots of time behind the trigger. Worry less about what the armchair experts think of YOUR chosen rifles, just pick one. Choose appropriate bullets, and go kill deer and coyotes.
 
In a pinch, if my 223 was my only functional rifle I would use it for whitetails.

The "common wisdom" is that 1000 pounds of impact energy is sufficient and ethical for taking a deer. I'm not going to argue that one way or the other, but for the sake of argument, let's say that's what you need.

I would personally tend to use a stouter bullet with a smaller caliber, so my "factory loaded" choices might be (living within that 1000 lb rule):

In mono's:

A Hornady Superformance GMX 55 grain 223 making 1007 lbs @ 100 yards
Nosler Trophy Grade 55 grain E-Tip 223 making 947 lbs @ 100
Barnes Vor-TX 55 grain TSX Flat base making 940 lbs @ 100

Standard loads:

Federal Premium Vital-Shok 60 Nosler Partitions making 998 lbs @ 100 yards
(Federal) 62 grain Fusion making 1001 lbs @ 100 yards

I might consider a shoulder shot @ 50 yards or less, through the boiler room if I was out at 100 yards (and where I hunt whitetails, 100 yards would be a long shot - 30 to 50 yards is "typical").

Just to compare, because I do use a 243 for deer, shooting a 95 grain SST it is making 992 lbs "OUT AT" 400 Yards pretty much equaling or outperforming all of the above 223 options @ 100 yards. And that is a fair bit more "insurance".

But I would never tell an experienced, disciplined hunter, who would restrict their shots to "really close" and was patient enough to wait for a decent broadside shot that it's "unethical" to use a 223 or 22-250.

But (BUT) it's not generally "that hunter" that is asking about using a 22 cal for deer - because if they "were that hunter" they would already know the answer.

Can you and Should you can not be answered the same way...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom