Wolf trapping..

[umchorn2]

I have been hunting for 25 years. Areas I have hunted regularly in Manitoba include the east side of lake Winnipeg from Brokenhead Indian reserve up to Manigotagon, including pine falls and Belair forest.

In Saskatchewan I have hunted within a 50 mile radius of saskatoon and in many of the PFRA pastures along the highway 16 latitude from Yorkton and west to Wilkie and in Porcupine forest. In addition I have moved freight along CP north line from Winnipeg to Hardisty, Regina, Nipawin and Lloydmister and many other lines totaling several thousand trips and about 1500 track miles.

I have spent hundreds of days hunting and thousands of hours sometimes hiking many miles off the beaten path, not to mention a couple hundred thousand miles on the vehicle. I also have 3 trail cams on my private hunting preserve on the east side of Lake Manitoba.

I have never seen a wolf. Only prints. This leads me to believe that wolves are not the problem. I would really be interested in hearing someone perspective on the issue who has flown dozens of aerial surveys over thousands of miles of area to educate me on wolf and big game populations. My hypothesis is that low big game populations are not the result of high wolf numbers but rather a combination of human related pressures.

 

[Dogleg]

I have been hunting for 25 years. Areas I have hunted regularly in Manitoba include the east side of lake Winnipeg from Brokenhead Indian reserve up to Manigotagon, including pine falls and Belair forest.

In Saskatchewan I have hunted within a 50 mile radius of saskatoon and in many of the PFRA pastures along the highway 16 latitude from Yorkton and west to Wilkie and in Porcupine forest. In addition I have moved freight along CP north line from Winnipeg to Hardisty, Regina, Nipawin and Lloydmister and many other lines totaling several thousand trips and about 1500 track miles.

I have spent hundreds of days hunting and thousands of hours sometimes hiking many miles off the beaten path, not to mention a couple hundred thousand miles on the vehicle. I also have 3 trail cams on my private hunting preserve on the east side of Lake Manitoba.

I have never seen a wolf. Only prints. This leads me to believe that wolves are not the problem. I would really be interested in hearing someone perspective on the issue who has flown dozens of aerial surveys over thousands of miles of area to educate me on wolf and big game populations. My hypothesis is that low big game populations are not the result of high wolf numbers but rather a combination of human related pressures.

Come with me and I'll show you all the wolf tracks you can eat. A wolf standing in them is more difficult.

 

[Ardent]

Due to political correctness,I can't see the government initiating a wold cull, even when the evidence proves we need it to preserve moose and caribou pollutions ( wolves decimated the deer on Vancouver island and it took close to 30 years for them to even start to recover) So that pretty much leaves it up to individuals, and since wolves are heard far more than seen, trapping seems to be the best option,but even that is a dedicated skill,they aren't like coyotes that come to a call easily ...Hopefuly fur prices will provide some incentive and wolf populations seem to be on the increase and in rural areas where they aren't hunted,they are getting more bold about approaching built up areas

I'm honestly getting a little irritated by all the "if only BC would cull" talk when it's happening, right now, and has been for quite some time. BC is spending hundreds of thousands on helicopter time and shooters as we speak, do you not remember Miley Cyrus showing up just months ago to cry with the bands about the cull? I've posted this in a couple of your threads and it seems to me it doesn't jive with your ideas, and presumption the Clark government will never act (though they are the only ones who will), so it is ignored.

 

[umchorn2]

If there is anyone on this site reading this thread who actually has wolf population and pack numbers and locations of where these packs are distributed including their ranges...please share that info.

I would prefer someone who has years of data and can back it up using a reliable research methods including aerial surveys over many years and areas.

Just an educated guess but I can't see there being more than 15,000 wolves in our entire country and here is why...

NAFA (North American Fur Auctions) annual report which documents sales of fur in Canada and is one of the world leaders in fur markets, providing canadian trappers with exposure to global markets

2016 timber wolf pelts 1524. Average price per pelt $174.76
2015 timber wolf pelts 1190 avg price per pelt $137.53
2014 timber wolf pelts 1560 avg price per pelt $140.09

How many guys just shoot these magnificent animals and leave em? Highly legal by the way...

 

[Ardent]

Just BC's government commissioned estimate based on solid science is 8,500, and that's likely very low. I would be very, very startled if BC alone held more than half of Canada's wolves to say the least, when the territories and Alberta are considered. 60% of the wolves in just one province? I doubt that.

And the governments of both BC and Alberta are shooting and leaving wolves for good reason, ~200 were aerial culled in the Grande Cache area alone the last couple years.

 

[ratherbefishin]

The fact that wolves are not readily seen is not surprising .....VI has one of the highest cougar densities in North America ,yet are rarely seen.I have hunted for over 50 years on VI and seen just 2 Cougars,but a number of cougar kills , not terribly unusual unless one has dogs and specificaly targets them. I have never seen a wolf either.....but I've heard them howling many times,seen a lot of tracks and scat ....large predators are elusive especialy when there's lots of bush.Ranchers and trappers are probably the best sources of local information,hunters observing moose/deer numbers-people with boots on the ground

 

[Ardent]

Agreed there, but ratherbefishing I would appreciate your response and thoughts on the current and ongoing wolf culls in BC. At least two threads now you have bemoaned the lack of government will to undertake them when in reality the whole time they've been going full tilt, and all over the media from here to Los Angeles. The BC Libs love them or hate them are the only party with the ability to form a government who will cull, and that they've been doing, aggressively at that. I'm more than a little perplexed by your posts expressing you're unaware of any culls and even saying the government will never act and do it, at least twice now, when in reality BC runs the biggest and and most aggressive cull program in the country.

Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[ratherbefishin]

Fair enough,and I have to say my view may be biased based on our experiance on VI were little intervention took place with disasterous results. My moose information is coming from contacts I have in the PG area,people who live there and observed significant declines in moose numbers and a corresponding increase in wolves...I spoke with a guy in forestry management ( not a hunter) who told me they advised the BC government 5 years ago that there was a significant decline in browse due to beetle kill,and also a significant increase in wolf numbers and they were seeing fewer moose .....obviously nothing can be done about weather,but burns would improve habitat by increasing browse and wolves populations can be reduced...there's no magic bullet...

 

[Ardent]

PG and the cariboo has at least one machine culling, they're active there. The government quite wisely doesn't splash it in the news though, perhaps even me expressing my frustration at the lack of knowledge about the cull efforts is misguided. But since news outlets from here to the states are reporting it frequently likely no harm, it's a pretty poorly kept secret.

 

[ratherbefishin]

I would just like to be reassured the government is committed to counteracting the recent decline in moose populations and providing hunters a reasonable opportunity to harvest a moose. Hunters I know in the PG area report seeing very few moose in areas where they were once abundant. The fact that hunting is not politically popular as seen in licences sold a fraction of what they were 40 years ago while the general populations have climbed and therefore not a significant source of votes makes me concerned that the decline in moose populations may not be a priority.A dedicated habitat improvement program would likely go a long way to increasing deer,elk and moose populations, preditor control is only part of it .With the proliferation of digestive tract cancers, eating hormone free meat from animals eating what they should be eating should be recognised as a legitimate reason to hunt and encouraged

 

[DVXDUDE]

I wish Ontario would make it law that you have to shoot a coyote/Wolf to get a deer/moose tag. I know a lot of people would beat the system, but there would be a lot less coyotes and wolves around.

 

[march]

Impressed with my Uncle

Wolves ,are a problem for Moose mostly, but
in my area the deer are going down hill as well
also cub bear . But that kind of evens out , because of the over run of bear .
I trap but never had much luck with wolves , mostly
fox .My uncle has had lots of luck though , but he is retied
and can go at it everyday , also bigger trapping area .
Last year the Fur Harvesters gave him award ( He is pretty good at what he does )

 

[umchorn2]

The declines in caribou is a case in point and can factually be supported that wolves have little to do with the decline. Here's why...

As a professional hunter and a serious conservationist I take finding my game seriously and I look at primarily 2 factors: habitat and population density. Within each subset there are factors that affect each, primarily: food source & bedding areas, and territory and breeding rights.

Woodland caribou are an animal that has evolved over many thousand generations to eat only one thing - lichen. Lichen is a long lived and very slow growing and low nutrition organism which successfully replicates in old growth and undisturbed forest where nutrients are actively being recycled ie. a forest in the decay phase. Lichen needs very specific conditions for its survival and does not respond favorably to even slight environmental changes.

Because the caribou has evolved such a reliance on this organism as a food source, disturbances to their habitat ie. logged old growth forest, produce the biggest single contributor to their population declines because lichen cannot grow under logged conditions as lichen need very specific conditions to survive. Look at the google satellite and you can see exactly how much of our countries forests are in the regeneration phase (growth only). They will be a different green colour.

Because replanted forest and clear cuts expose lichen to direct sunlight the organism essentially drys out. We all know how prolific clear cutting is in logging these days, so any recently logged areas do not support viable woodland caribou populations. Lichen is also highly susceptible to pollution by air and changes in PH that come when dissolved minerals from mine smelters fall in high concentrations as rain water - aka acid rain.

If you don't believe me look at the barren ground caribou...it is reliant on a different lichen species that lives in the tundra. Their habitat has not been as affected because their are no trees to log, but they have seen steady herd reductions in recent years as climate warms and northern development alters their calving and wintering ranges. My prediction is their foodsource will be less competitive as forbs (grasses) take over when climate warms and new vegatation can take hold in areas previously uninhavitable for those species.

Another example of animals that don't live in any significant numbers in young plantation grade pine and spruce regeberated forests are squirrels, woodpeckers, owl, and fungus, particularly mushrooms. If you need me to explain why...you just ain't gettin it. All one need do is grab a notebook and record the soecies and number of each in a plantation forest then move to an old growth or undisturbed forest like a national park and you will see for yourself what I am highlighting.

Gentleman, time to get educated...look for the connections and take action. We have no one to blame but ourselves here.

 

[Ardent]

"Gentleman",

-While largely accurate that Woodland Caribou eat primarily lichen, it is by no means all they'll eat. They also browse moss, willow, tag alder, birch, grass, and sedges. The evolution to lichen specialisation is due to it being the only abundant food source in northern latitudes much of the year, therefore we will inevitably agree on lichen's importance. A rather sweeping statement however to claim they eat only lichen. Also, the majority of the boreal forest, and therefore its lichen, is intact as you would know as a "professional hunter" and serious conservationist. In the true large old growth spruce, lichen and caribou are quite sparse. We find most of the Woodland Caribou in black spruce, 3-10m tall, and wet ground.

-Old growth in the boreal and North is amongst the most dead habitats present. They contain the fewest tracks, the least browse, and the natural fire cycle worked to prevent its formation historically. Timber management and forest fire suppression practices altered this dynamic. The lack of fires, and then suddenly overly hot fires when it does finally burn, has been detrimental to the Woodland Caribou.

-I see numerous caribou kills from the cockpit at work, all wolves, I've found more guiding on foot. I'll concede they may be weakened and easier prey for the wolves, however absolutely zero question exists that wolves are killing caribou at an extraordinary rate, I've noted a significant increase in kills spotted since five years ago and much increased wolf sign.

-Your estimate of 15,000 wolves in all of Canada (I would estimate this number for just British Columbia, it's not far above the government's well supported high range estimate) presumes trappers manage to get more than 1 in 15 wolves or far more. The ratio is far more likely closer to 1:100, as any trapper will be able to tell you from bait hits and tracks without capture. I would actually even be impressed if trappers were managing to take 1% of wolves annually, in the current era of massively declined trapping.

-So we know who we're talking to, and I'll likely be surprised and impressed, what are you a "professional hunter" of and where? I'd yet to meet a PH outside Africa. I'll refrain from questions of an overly personal nature, such as what education you have to trump the biologists at the BC government who made deeply unpopular decisions based on hard data. Most of these folks (I deal with them in the course of my work) are quite "Greeny" having chosen biology as a career, and don't take this decision lightly. An exhaustive amount of research preceded the culls. Quite simply; tell me how you know better.

Thank you! I look forward to the reply and note a proper interest in the subject, I don't agree with your interpretation wholly however.

 

[umchorn2]

I have been interested in conservation and game management since I was young. Although not educated in that field I have an undergrad degree and then some from the University of Manitoba and understand proper research methods and data analysis when conducting experiments. I consider my ability to learn and research equal to any PhD. as I have always maintained very good to excellent grades and have met and exceeded all educational and physical conditioning standards throughout the educational system mainly because I enjoy both learning and being fit.

I have always been one of those people who thought he could do something better or improve it and had to prove it to himself. That is why I purchased my hunting property...because I knew I could manage my little area the way I wanted and because financially I have paid off my house, have assets, no debt and generate gains in equity markets to improve my financial health.

Thus the move from hunter to conservationist. I am testing myself and pushing myself to "beat the street" as they say and have decided it's easier to produce my own hunting opportunities through land ownership mainly because I am looking for very specifc results eg. mature bucks. Although I have mastered waterfowl and deer hunting, the lack of opportunities for elk and moose would see me a poacher if I were to shoot a mature bull without a draw tag, as virtually all zones in Saskatchewan and Manitoba are draw only elk or moose and when I see one I am of course not able to take it.

So I'm disappointed and frankly pissed off with the game managers inabilities and ineptness to supply the hunting community with adequate game populations to meet hunter and angler demand and thus have decided to do so myself. Ironically I have not used the services of an outfitter although given my income level it would pay to do so.

I think that given the cheap land prices in Manitoba it is time to make another investment in land, which will serve the dual function as a conservation property while providing a return on capital as a conservative cattle operation with a modest return.

I know that predator control is a viable strategy in every conservationists tool kit, but it has to be done sustainably and by licensed trappers or hunters so the resource can best be utilized. Every resource is valuable and must be treated as such. In many countries their wealth has been measured by their abundance of wildlife. Have we become so poor that we cannot afford to make the neccessary investments to protect it?

 

[horshur]

Agreed there, but ratherbefishing I would appreciate your response and thoughts on the current and ongoing wolf culls in BC. At least two threads now you have bemoaned the lack of government will to undertake them when in reality the whole time they've been going full tilt, and all over the media from here to Los Angeles. The BC Libs love them or hate them are the only party with the ability to form a government who will cull, and that they've been doing, aggressively at that. I'm more than a little perplexed by your posts expressing you're unaware of any culls and even saying the government will never act and do it, at least twice now, when in reality BC runs the biggest and and most aggressive cull program in the country.

Appreciate your thoughts.

it is obvious somthin is happening average pack size is 3-4 individuals wolves seem to be focusing on smaller game(deer) they are not camping in one small area and cleaning it. First winter in a long time I have not found a moose kill...they (wolves) obviously have killed a few judging there #### but for a long stretch I have found several moose kills every winter this year I have only found deer wolf kills...also seeing some cows(moose) still with a calf or at least there tracks..been long time with very few cows keeping there calves through winter alive.....Christy Clark Rocks!

 

[MiG25]

If there is anyone on this site reading this thread who actually has wolf population and pack numbers and locations of where these packs are distributed including their ranges...please share that info.

I would prefer someone who has years of data and can back it up using a reliable research methods including aerial surveys over many years and areas.

Just an educated guess but I can't see there being more than 15,000 wolves in our entire country and here is why...

NAFA (North American Fur Auctions) annual report which documents sales of fur in Canada and is one of the world leaders in fur markets, providing canadian trappers with exposure to global markets

2016 timber wolf pelts 1524. Average price per pelt $174.76
2015 timber wolf pelts 1190 avg price per pelt $137.53
2014 timber wolf pelts 1560 avg price per pelt $140.09

How many guys just shoot these magnificent animals and leave em? Highly legal by the way...

In BC farmers shoot a few wolves and none of them make it to the fur sales. I'd be surprise if they are even reporting their wolf kills.

 

[jongun]

Hunter groups need to find ways to fund trappers. Government won't.

At least support trappers. Many hunters believe it or not are 100% ignorant concerning trapping/trappers and even outright anti trapping. Trying to educate the hunters on my line one at a time and also learn from them at the same time. Trapping is my #1 outdoor activity but taking in the hunting when time allows. Inspired to hunt as much as possible by these forums just as I'm inspired to trap by the fellows over on the trapping forums.

 

[Ardent]

I have been interested in conservation and game management since I was young. Although not educated in that field I have an undergrad degree and then some from the University of Manitoba and understand proper research methods and data analysis when conducting experiments. I consider my ability to learn and research equal to any PhD. as I have always maintained very good to excellent grades and have met and exceeded all educational and physical conditioning standards throughout the educational system mainly because I enjoy both learning and being fit.

I have always been one of those people who thought he could do something better or improve it and had to prove it to himself. That is why I purchased my hunting property...because I knew I could manage my little area the way I wanted and because financially I have paid off my house, have assets, no debt and generate gains in equity markets to improve my financial health.

Thus the move from hunter to conservationist. I am testing myself and pushing myself to "beat the street" as they say and have decided it's easier to produce my own hunting opportunities through land ownership mainly because I am looking for very specifc results eg. mature bucks. Although I have mastered waterfowl and deer hunting, the lack of opportunities for elk and moose would see me a poacher if I were to shoot a mature bull without a draw tag, as virtually all zones in Saskatchewan and Manitoba are draw only elk or moose and when I see one I am of course not able to take it.

So I'm disappointed and frankly pissed off with the game managers inabilities and ineptness to supply the hunting community with adequate game populations to meet hunter and angler demand and thus have decided to do so myself. Ironically I have not used the services of an outfitter although given my income level it would pay to do so.

I think that given the cheap land prices in Manitoba it is time to make another investment in land, which will serve the dual function as a conservation property while providing a return on capital as a conservative cattle operation with a modest return.

I know that predator control is a viable strategy in every conservationists tool kit, but it has to be done sustainably and by licensed trappers or hunters so the resource can best be utilized. Every resource is valuable and must be treated as such. In many countries their wealth has been measured by their abundance of wildlife. Have we become so poor that we cannot afford to make the neccessary investments to protect it?

I got a lot more than I could have hoped for there, what a fascinating argument in favour of... you.

Curiously, I'm likewise educated at a poorly respected university, also curiously a fledgling outfitter (professional hunter rather in your terms) as you purport to be though you are likely far ahead on that path, and have flown counts in my other job where these culls are actually taking place. Unfortunately however I haven't gained your ability to out study, and out reason professional field biologists though I may attempt to make arguments as if I can. I'm also far, far below your level of besting PhD's. You do however remind me of the philosophy majors in university, and I say this with as much respect as I was able to give them.

 

[bearkilr]

I have been interested in conservation and game management since I was young. Although not educated in that field I have an undergrad degree and then some from the University of Manitoba and understand proper research methods and data analysis when conducting experiments. I consider my ability to learn and research equal to any PhD. as I have always maintained very good to excellent grades and have met and exceeded all educational and physical conditioning standards throughout the educational system mainly because I enjoy both learning and being fit.

I have always been one of those people who thought he could do something better or improve it and had to prove it to himself. That is why I purchased my hunting property...because I knew I could manage my little area the way I wanted and because financially I have paid off my house, have assets, no debt and generate gains in equity markets to improve my financial health.

Thus the move from hunter to conservationist. I am testing myself and pushing myself to "beat the street" as they say and have decided it's easier to produce my own hunting opportunities through land ownership mainly because I am looking for very specifc results eg. mature bucks. Although I have mastered waterfowl and deer hunting, the lack of opportunities for elk and moose would see me a poacher if I were to shoot a mature bull without a draw tag, as virtually all zones in Saskatchewan and Manitoba are draw only elk or moose and when I see one I am of course not able to take it.

So I'm disappointed and frankly pissed off with the game managers inabilities and ineptness to supply the hunting community with adequate game populations to meet hunter and angler demand and thus have decided to do so myself. Ironically I have not used the services of an outfitter although given my income level it would pay to do so.

I think that given the cheap land prices in Manitoba it is time to make another investment in land, which will serve the dual function as a conservation property while providing a return on capital as a conservative cattle operation with a modest return.

I know that predator control is a viable strategy in every conservationists tool kit, but it has to be done sustainably and by licensed trappers or hunters so the resource can best be utilized. Every resource is valuable and must be treated as such. In many countries their wealth has been measured by their abundance of wildlife. Have we become so poor that we cannot afford to make the neccessary investments to protect it?

It's always refreshing to read posts by humble individuals. (sarcasm)
I don't have the interest nor inclination to pick apart your flawed ideals. Ardent has done a very fine job so far.