Fixed sight rant

iamcanadianeh

iamcanadianeh

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I'm not sure about everyone else, but I'm bent out of shape about manufacturers putting together high end guns with fixed sights that are pretty friggen far from being sighted in. I'm pretty amazed that $1400+ guns from various manufacturers can be shipped out and the sights aren't aligned, and sometimes not even remotely close to being aligned. What gives?
 
I hear ya - it's crazy they can't add a decent set of adjustables for the prices charged. Just swapped out a set on a Sig P226 - much clearer AND adjustable!
 
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I'm with you on that. I paid over 2K for a gun and the front sight was so obviously not centred I don't know how it could have passed any sort of QC. Clearly there wasn't any (and it could not have been knocked out of place as it was very tightly fit). I go to the extent of asking the shop to do a quick check now before shipping. Doesn't mean it is perfect, but at least it won't be unshootable.
 
plinker 777 said:
Are these guns not test fired at the factory? Do they not ship with target and brass? If so, at some point in time the sights were "on".
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Very few manufacturers test fire. European guns are proofed. Some target guns come with a test target and they are fired for accuracy. The fired casing was a US state requirement for tracking crime guns, it only provided the fired case nobody cared where the bullet went. FWIW there are way more complaints about the guns being dirty from this firing than complaints about the sights being off. Everyone was claiming the guns were fired by the retailer and was therefore used.
 
I think half the problem is most come sighted in for point of aim and most shooters want 6 oclock position. I have had to put adjustable rear sights on just about every pistol I have ever bought.
 
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I think half the problem is most come sighted in for point of aim and most shooters want 6 oclock position. I have had to put adjustable rear sights on just about every pistol I have ever bought.
 
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I visited the savage factory. Each rifle is fired with 5 rounds, to make sure it feeds, fires, extracts and ejects. No attempt is made to sight it in.

About 1:100 rifles is sighted in, to make sure that the combination of front sight and rear sight is the correct sight to allow a rifle to be sighted in.

In summary, they are notr delivered sighted in, but they are made with the correct sights that can be dialed in to suite the owner.
 
xldbldbl said:
I think half the problem is most come sighted in for point of impact and most shooters want 6 oclock position. I have had to put adjustable rear sights on just about every pistol I have ever bought.
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It depends on the style of shooting you do. I would think most action shooters would want POA regulated sights not six o'clock. Unless you are into Bullseye shooting I would think adjustable sights are a bit of a waste of money. All my competition pistol sights are fixed and shoot POA at the ranges I shoot at (IPSC/IDPA/ASI/Steel). My two competition revolvers have adjustable sights. I have the set for 160 gr bullets and know the setting for 200 gr bullets. My CZ, M&P and Sig all came regulated for POA and all were spot on. When I say spot on I test them off a rest. Freestyle I would never know. :>) I reload so if they were a tad low or high I would just adjust my load.

Take Care

Bob.
 
Canuck44 said:
It depends on the style of shooting you do. I would think most action shooters would want POA regulated sights not six o'clock. Unless you are into Bullseye shooting I would think adjustable sights are a bit of a waste of money. All my competition pistol sights are fixed and shoot POA at the ranges I shoot at (IPSC/IDPA/ASI/Steel). My two competition revolvers have adjustable sights. I have the set for 160 gr bullets and know the setting for 200 gr bullets. My CZ, M&P and Sig all came regulated for POA and all were spot on. When I say spot on I test them off a rest. Freestyle I would never know. :>) I reload so if they were a tad low or high I would just adjust my load.

Take Care

Bob.
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Actually most action shooters do want adjustable sights and a 6 oclock position so they can see where the shot is going, point of aim is not fun when you can only see 2" of an IPSC target sticking up above a no shoot at 20+ yards. Most of the guns built for these sports come with adjustable sights like Tanfogilo and STI so they can be adjusted for the load they are shooting, if its shooting low the last thing you want to do is up your load and have to deal with more recoil than everyone else, and visa versa, if its high and you reduce your load you may not make power factor and not get scored for the match at all. Plus if your traveling to a lot of matches you may have to shoot match ammo and would need to adjust your sights for what is provided at each match.
 
I'm with Bob on this. Most action shooters I've talked with do NOT want a 6 o'clock hold. The reason being that a 6 o'clock only works for the same size center shot at the same distance each time. If the relation ship of target size to distance changes then your shots will print higher or lower than intended. Shoot at different distances and different size targets and the 6 o'clock method is going to produce a lot of low and high misses. For variations in target size and distances you want the POA to match the POI.

Most of my own fixed sight guns came to me correctly set. And when they arrive that way they were set up for a centered POA vs POI. BUT! In some cases this assumes you shoot the proper load and bullet weight. Not as big a deal on semis but on revolvers it really makes a difference.

Fixed rear sights also tend to sit lower so the front sight can also be lower. And adjustable rear sights can snag on holsters or clothing or be more easily broken or knocked out of adjustment. Not as big a deal up here where we are a country of target shooters. But in the US where many more guns are carried the greater durability of fixed sights has much to recommend them.
 
The problem with a point of impact in action shooting is you need to cover what you are shooting with your front sight, trying to get 2 hits as fast as you can when you have the target covered is much harder than seeing where you want to hit sitting on top of the front sight. Plus if you get a stage with a couple 40-50 yard targets thrown in you have some over hold already built in.

As for the fixed sights, yes they would be much better for concealed carry and less chance of snagging but were talking about competition guns with many different types of people shooting different power factors with different weights of bullets and powders, there is a reason Tanfogilo and STI build all their competition guns with adjustable rear sights. A 9mm with fixed sights shooting POA at 20 yds with a factory loaded 115gr bullet will shoot about 5-6" low with a 147gr bullet loaded for IPSC minor power factor.
 
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xldbldbl said:
The problem with a point of impact in action shooting is you need to cover what you are shooting with your front sight, trying to get 2 hits as fast as you can when you have the target covered is much harder than seeing where you want to hit sitting on top of the front sight. Plus if you get a stage with a couple 40-50 yard targets thrown in you have some over hold already built in.

As for the fixed sights, yes they would be much better for concealed carry and less chance of snagging but were talking about competition guns with many different types of people shooting different power factors with different weights of bullets and powders, there is a reason Tanfogilo and STI build all their competition guns with adjustable rear sights. A 9mm with fixed sights shooting POA at 20 yds with a factory loaded 115gr bullet will shoot about 5-6" low with a 147gr bullet loaded for IPSC minor power factor.
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Do you shoot either IDPA or IPSC? The CZ Shadow is the most popular gun in IPSC Production while the Glock and M&P are the two most popular pistols in IDPA and all three come with fixed sights for a reason. They can be faster to acquire, and are more durable than adjustable sights. I know of no one who shoots to a six o'clock hold in either sport nor US Steel for that matter. IDPA has a 8" circle to score a down zero. A center hold gives you an error factor of 4" for 360 degrees. A six oclock hold on the down zero, assuming you are close enough to see the perforations would give you an error factor of 8" at the 12 oclock but none at the 3, 6 and 9 o'clock. See BC Riders comment.

I can't speak with any authority on IPSC since I shoot so little of it but for IDPA almost all the shooters shoot either variations of 9MM 124/125 gr or 147 gr bullets with the nod to 125. For most stages there is so little difference in POA no adjustment would be of any practical value. Most of us reload and tailoring a load to match the game we are playing is not particularly difficult. Frankly I have never been overly concerned about matching my sights but more concerned about a load that consistently just exceeds minimum power factor requirements (IDPA SSP/ESP- 125, Rev- 105 and CDP - 165) for the three divisions I shoot mostly. All my fixed sighted pistols shoot POA for all practical purposes when loads meet the PF requirement.

IDPA has a stage limitation of 25 yards for scenario based stages and 35 yards for Standard Exercises. The down Zero and Down 1 area is quite large and a center held shot will fall into either area no matter the distance. A fast shot scoring a down 1 (Half second penalty) is much better than a down zero that takes two seconds to achieve.

FYI if you are not aware IDPA is shot from concealed carry so sights that are less prone to snagging are a practical benefit.

Take Care

Bob
 
Yes I do shoot IPSC, since 1991, and yes the cz shadow is very popular and works very well and yes it comes with fixed sights but it was not designed around action shooing sports which is why most guys I know that shoot 147's have changed their sights even if they use point of aim. The Tanfogilo's and STI's were designed for action shooting and every single one of them come with adjustable rear sights. Maybe someone should call them and tell them they can knock $100 off each gun and send them with fixed sights because the adjustable ones are not needed in shooting sports. Now that being said CZ has stepped up and are releasing the shadow 2 designed specifically to be used in action shooting sports and guess what, it comes with a height adjustable sight.

Like I said the difference at 20-25 yds between a factory loaded 115gr and a hand loaded 147 gr min ipsc power factor load can be 5-6 inches. Most every production shooter I know runs 147's, heaver bullet can be shot slower to meet power factor, less powder = less recoil, and again if your traveling to a lot of matches you may have to use match ammo which could be anything from factory 115's to commercially reloaded 147's.

IDPA might be limited to 25 yds but IPSC and USPSA are not, its not uncommon to throw in targets out to 40+ yards. Last summer I shot a 24 round stage that consisted of 4 tip up paper targets each activated by a 6" round plate all set out at over 40 yards before moving to engage 2 10 yard paper targets then a mini popper at 35 yards that activated 2 more paper targets at 20 yards and finally another tip up with 6" plate at 40yrds. Low hits with a 9mm will not activate and even with a 6 oclock sight picture I had to keep my front sight level with the top of the 6" plates to get a center or higher hit hard enough to activate, with point of aim you would have to over hold the plates completely hiding them with the muzzle of the gun.
 
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