How Much Rib Should I See?

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Spokerider

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Gents,
Although not new to firearms, I am new to shotgun fitment and shooting them.

I have a new to me, Beretta S55 20 gauge O/U and I would like to know how it, or any shotgun *should* fit. Yes, this is a very subjective / in-depth topic. I have been researching and reading for days on shotgun fitment, proper shotgun mounting form, patterning the gun/ load, etc, etc. I understand that one must have good form and mount technique / pattern testing, before proper gun fit can be determined, and if any stock modifications are needed. I also understand that one needs a gun that fits "reasonably" well before good mounting technique can be developed.

So..........

How much rib should I see up to the bead? Equal to the height of the bead? Double the height of the bead? More?
The S55 has a little crescent in the action where the bead can be brought right down into the depression, seeing zero rib in doing so. When I hold the stock tight to my cheek, and then place the butt into my shoulder pocket, eyes closed, I see double the height of the bead, amount of rib, when I open my eyes.

Cast........there is very little off cast, maybe 1/8th or no off cast to this stock. I haven't actually measured it yet. I shoot left. When I consciously hold the stock tight to my cheek, I can center my vision down the center of the rib. If my mount is not tight on the cheek, my sight-line is off center of the rib and to the right edge of it. I may need some on cast, not sure yet though, as I'm just learning the very basics yet.........

The LOP seems pretty good. 14.5" There is a 1.5" gap between my thumb knuckle and the tip of my nose.

I thought about changing the recoil pad to a longer one, thus allowing for more drop at the comb [ and thus a lower sight line ] just to try it out, but the stock has a slight curve to between the heel and toe, and all of the recoil pads I see are flat........so just trying another pad will take some work to get it bent to the correct curve.

I know I need to pattern the gun before any stock changes are made, but first, I need to get my mounting form in practice before any patterning results can be determined.

Your thoughts please?
 
With the shotguns that I shoot best, I look along the top of the rib, not at the rib. I see almost none of the rib, but I see the full bead if I look for it, which is never when I am actually shooting.
 
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I'm far from expert in fitting, etc, but I can shoot, and I see none of the rib - and when I do, I miss.

All I've ever done is pull the shotgun to my shoulder with my eyes closed, and open them and see what I see. If it's bead only, golden.f I was VERY lucky that my trap Citori fit me beautifully off the shelf and it was 25% off!!!

Something else I've done (not often enough) is practice shouldering the shotgun from a hip-hold/ready position to shoulder over and over in the basement - 10 reps, then 20, then 30 - to develop the muscle memory. It's a bit OCD, but it's helped me a lot.

GGG
 
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Also take into account what discipline you like to shoot. Sporting clays generally shoot gun down/half mount where trap is full mount.

Ideally you should see bead only but some shooters like to see a bit of the ramp leading to the bead.

Happy shooting!
 
How much rib you see doesn't matter. When shotgunning you should be looking at the target with the rib/bead in your peripheral vision.

The "rear sight" on a shotgun is your eye and where it sits in relationship to the shot pattern is affected by the dimensions of the stock. To find out where your gun is shooting you need to pattern the gun. I've had guns where I "saw" lots of rib yet the POI was just fine and others that looked right but weren't putting the pattern in the right spot.

To pattern for fit, stand 16 yards away away from the board, put a large visible mark in the centre of the target and using a tight choke mount the gun and fire at the mark a few times. For every inch your pattern is off centre the stock will need to be adjusted 1/16 of an inch.

Here's a link to an article on gun fitting that explains the process.

http://www.gundogmag.com/training/fine-tuning-a-shotgun-to-fit-you/
 
I agree with clay buster but the best place to start is no rib seen. You want to see beed above the receiver and that is all. That is the best out of the box fit and then you make adjustments from there.

Every gun manufacturer makes guns to different dimensions. You should not become a brand loyal person as this will severely limit your gunning fit and if you are Brand loyal then you need to get the stock custom fit.

Before I knew much about fit I bought a Winchester Sx3 (amazing gun) but it doesn't fit me the greatest. When FN took over Winchester they did not keep the same stock dimensions used in the previous generation of guns like the 1300 and 1400s. My 1300 fits me way way better even after doubling up on drop shims on the Sx3. I still need more drop at comb and more drop at heel for the Sx3 to fit. It's like they were made for people with no neck!
 
it all is related to POI, I like to shoot clay with a gun that shoots about 60/40 so when the gun is doing that. that's how much rib I see . With adjustable comb you can change this . My sporting clay gun is raped up just a little. the beads are stacked on the rib. But like said before once I see this sight picture, I ignore the beads and look at the target
 
That is all good advice, thank you.
I understand that once the gun *fits* and the pointing at the target begins, that the eyes are on the target only, not the bead. I was referencing how much rib I saw [ double the bead height ] to give you an idea of how my sight line was appearing to me.

It seems that most like to see just the bead over the receiver, and not see any rib. Interesting. I tried patterning the gun at 16 yards, and it was shooting high, but, having been the first time shooting the new-to-me Beretta, and my first time ever attempting to pattern a shotgun, I don't have a lot of faith in the consistency of my mount.
I guess I should shoot it more, get more comfortable, practice daily mounting reps, muscle memory, etc and then try patterning it again.

To get a bead only sight picture, the comb height will have to be reduced. I can achieve that bead only sight, but it means having my cheek way back on the stock, far enough back that it doesn't feel like a natural mount. Do you guys bend the stock? Trim the comb height? This gun has a through bolt, and does not have shims to alter stock fitment.

I hope to learn to shoot it well enough to hunt grouse this season, and to hit sporting clays with some degree of satisfaction. No immediate plans for skeet at a range, or to buy another spendy shotgun anytime soon.
 
Spokerider said:
That is all good advice, thank you.
I understand that once the gun *fits* and the pointing at the target begins, that the eyes are on the target only, not the bead. I was referencing how much rib I saw [ double the bead height ] to give you an idea of how my sight line was appearing to me.

It seems that most like to see just the bead over the receiver, and not see any rib. Interesting. I tried patterning the gun at 16 yards, and it was shooting high, but, having been the first time shooting the new-to-me Beretta, and my first time ever attempting to pattern a shotgun, I don't have a lot of faith in the consistency of my mount.
I guess I should shoot it more, get more comfortable, practice daily mounting reps, muscle memory, etc and then try patterning it again.

To get a bead only sight picture, the comb height will have to be reduced. I can achieve that bead only sight, but it means having my cheek way back on the stock, far enough back that it doesn't feel like a natural mount. Do you guys bend the stock? Trim the comb height? This gun has a through bolt, and does not have shims to alter stock fitment.

I hope to learn to shoot it well enough to hunt grouse this season, and to hit sporting clays with some degree of satisfaction. No immediate plans for skeet at a range, or to buy another spendy shotgun anytime soon.
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I don't see why you couldn't shave the comb with a rasp, provided your capable of refinishing the wood.

There's a smith in AB that'll make your comb adjustable for a very reasonable price. Red Deer I think.

My Citori patterns high too. Not sure if that's common or just coincidence.

Get out and shoot. Choose your advice givers carefully, there's a lot of BS out there, but some good stuff too.

If you haven't already, learn to shoot with both eyes open.

Again, I'm no expert, but when I get close too, or achieve a 25/25 run its because I'm "in the groove". Things are smooth, follow through is there, I'm calm and I just "let things happen". It's very different than rifle shooting where it's all precision and worrying about movements that are likely measured in microns.

GGG
 
Spokerider said:
That is all good advice, thank you.
I understand that once the gun *fits* and the pointing at the target begins, that the eyes are on the target only, not the bead. I was referencing how much rib I saw [ double the bead height ] to give you an idea of how my sight line was appearing to me.

It seems that most like to see just the bead over the receiver, and not see any rib. Interesting. I tried patterning the gun at 16 yards, and it was shooting high, but, having been the first time shooting the new-to-me Beretta, and my first time ever attempting to pattern a shotgun, I don't have a lot of faith in the consistency of my mount.
I guess I should shoot it more, get more comfortable, practice daily mounting reps, muscle memory, etc and then try patterning it again.

To get a bead only sight picture, the comb height will have to be reduced. I can achieve that bead only sight, but it means having my cheek way back on the stock, far enough back that it doesn't feel like a natural mount. Do you guys bend the stock? Trim the comb height? This gun has a through bolt, and does not have shims to alter stock fitment.

I hope to learn to shoot it well enough to hunt grouse this season, and to hit sporting clays with some degree of satisfaction. No immediate plans for skeet at a range, or to buy another spendy shotgun anytime soon.
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You can make adjustments to comb height and cast by altering the fit angle of the stock to the receiver. Example being as when some gun manufacturers supply shims for this purpose the fit between the receiver and stock. This saves doing major surgery to the stock body, and then refinishing. It is fine work as you are not removing much material. I know several good stock men that use this method of altering fit, unfortunately none of them are in Saskatchewan.
 
Spokerider said:
It seems that most like to see just the bead over the receiver, and not see any rib. Interesting. I tried patterning the gun at 16 yards, and it was shooting high, but, having been the first time shooting the new-to-me Beretta, and my first time ever attempting to pattern a shotgun, I don't have a lot of faith in the consistency of my mount.

I guess I should shoot it more, get more comfortable, practice daily mounting reps, muscle memory, etc and then try patterning it again.
Click to expand...
Is there an experienced shotgunner or instructor you can hire to help you through this process? If so it's worth asking or even paying.

You really can't learn the intricacies of patterning, fit, stance and shotgunning in general based on the advice of random strangers on the Internet none of whom can actually see you shoot.

In my earlier years I pissed away thousands of dollars on shells and targets with only moderate progress. Once I started taking some professional instruction my scores both in the field and at the club improved significantly.
 
mrgoat said:
You can make adjustments to comb height and cast by altering the fit angle of the stock to the receiver. Example being as when some gun manufacturers supply shims for this purpose the fit between the receiver and stock. This saves doing major surgery to the stock body, and then refinishing. It is fine work as you are not removing much material. I know several good stock men that use this method of altering fit, unfortunately none of them are in Saskatchewan.
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Spokey (the OP) is on Van Island.

I'm lucky here, mine fit right off the shelf!!!
 
Claybuster said:
Is there an experienced shotgunner or instructor you can hire to help you through this process? If so it's worth asking or even paying.

You really can't learn the intricacies of patterning, fit, stance and shotgunning in general based on the advice of random strangers on the Internet none of whom can actually see you shoot.

In my earlier years I pissed away thousands of dollars on shells and targets with only moderate progress. Once I started taking some professional instruction my scores both in the field and at the club improved significantly.
Click to expand...

Is there a certain credential or certification you would recommend??

As you know, every club is filled with advice givers. How do we know which ones to look for and trust?
 
Yes, there is a [ trusted by others ] gun stock fitter about 150kms from me. I have not contacted him yet. He seems to be the guy that most recommend. I'm on Van Isle, not far from Victoria.

Yes, I have the skills to precisely remove stock material from the comb, but when it's gone, it's gone, and if it wasn't the right mod, then I'll just be a step further back. I'm still in the "gleaning advice" stage about this and am in no hurry to pick up the tools.

An adjustable comb sounds like a possible option. That way the gun may fit shooters other than myself if I ever choose to sell it.

I'm not sure that stock alterations to cast and comb height can be made by removing material from one side of the receiver wood on this O/U. The long tang, and the bolt going through the back of the stock to the receiver may complicate those efforts.
 
Spokerider said:
Yes, there is a [ trusted by others ] gun stock fitter about 150kms from me. I have not contacted him yet. He seems to be the guy that most recommend. I'm on Van Isle, not far from Victoria.

Yes, I have the skills to precisely remove stock material from the comb, but when it's gone, it's gone, and if it wasn't the right mod, then I'll just be a step further back. I'm still in the "gleaning advice" stage about this and am in no hurry to pick up the tools.

An adjustable comb sounds like a possible option. That way the gun may fit shooters other than myself if I ever choose to sell it.

I'm not sure that stock alterations to cast and comb height can be made by removing material from one side of the receiver wood on this O/U. The long tang, and the bolt going through the back of the stock to the receiver may complicate those efforts.
Click to expand...

If you have an adjustable comb installed, you will be able to adjust the comb up and down, and side to side. I have two adjustable combs installed for $185 each, by Victor Tomlinson.
 
So I practiced my mounting technique on the Beretta again today, as I have done most days for the last two weeks. I'm getting more comfortable with the "feel" of a good mount and the muscle memory recall of it too.

I also took some drop measurements, as my line of sight is not flat, but rather the amount of rib seen, is double the bead height when gun is mounted with eyes closed.

Drop at comb is 1 5/16
Drop at heel is 2 1/8
Drop where my cheek bone meets comb is 1 11/16
Drop where my cheek bone [ slid back on stock ] allows for a bead-only sight is 1 3/4

*IF* I were to reduce comb height by 1/16th where my cheek bone contacts stock, where should the wood be removed?
Options.........

1] All along the length of the top of the stock, keeping the original drop amount to the stock, comb to heel.
2] At an angle, roughly 1/8th off the comb tapering to zero wood removed at the heel.
3] The reverse of the above....remove roughly 1/8th from the heel end tapering to zero wood removed at the comb end.
4] Dishing out the portion of the stock where my cheek bone contacts the mid-comb.

Which option is most commonly applied? Why? Why to avoid any particular option?

Also, IF I mod this stock, I may remove a little of the side wood to allow for "on cast" of about 1/16th. Then I wont have to hold the stock so tight to my cheek bone.

Alternatively, and adjustable comb is an option, but I know nothing about them........yet.
 
If you did your own mods, and really f"d it up (within reason), the adjustable comb guy could make it up.

I'd me taking an equal amount off the entire comb, 1/16" at a time. Shoulder it, and see how she feels. Stain, lacquer, and shoot.

You sure your LOP is right?? I know on my rifles a 25$ pachmayr pad has made a world of difference in my sight line. Maybe try that and give her a go.
 
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