Reloading vets vs books, and more questions

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ilikeoldguns

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I'm suffering from some cognitive dissonance on reloading.

At heart; I'm taking the literal word and the impression I get from the books, which is use only this powder, in these cases, with these primers and *exactly* these bullets, in only this gun, or it will be unsafe.

And then I take what people say on this and other fourms and it's much more lassize-faire, come as you are, ect. Guys are like; just use this, or about this much powder ought to do.

So I'm wondering; a) Where do these guys get this black magic knowledge; about which powders are similar, which are faster, slower burning, which can just be swapped out, ect; basically the confidence to just go outside the literal word of the books. At heart; I'm looking at reloading as a science, but is it more art? and b) Does this really matter in such detail? can I just use whatever rifle primer with a bullet of the same weight, even if it's not quite identical in type and/or manufacturer. Like can i use Speer bullets, in a recipe that calls for hornady? I'm not seeing any info like this on the boxes and cans.

Maybe i'm being pedantic. If this was cooking or baking, I wouldn't hesitate. But at the same time, the potential results are not the same. In cooking if I decide I can substitute sauerkraut for onions (Did not get rave reviews), it's no big deal, but if I'm wrong about something (not so extreme as sauerkraut/onions, more like onion salt for onion powder) I could get hurt or wreck my guns.

Lastly; should/neck size only. How do I know if I am or am not doing this? How does one set one's dies in this way? Do you need special dies to shoulder/neck-size only?

Thanks for your time, hope this wasn't too painful for anyone.
 
Reloading is a science. Everyone will have an opinion but some will have facts based on practical research and testing. Published manuals are great reference materials to learn what the "tried and true" component mix and load charges are. Primer selection may have an impact if you are trying to recreate a specific load out of a specific rifle. In competitive situations where consistency is required, you will usually stick to the same primer type (and lot number) and not switch from brand to brand. If you are reloading plinking ammo then small pistol primer is small pistol primer, no need to worry about it materially affecting your reload.

Switching between different projectiles of the same weight usually not significant if you are selecting within the same type of bullet - FMJ vs Ballistic Tip vs HP vs SP. The different types of bullets may require different seating depths to achieve a desired group size. This is determined via load testing. So for me, I consider a Sierra 155 grain HP boattail bullet the same as a Nosler 155 grain HP boattail bullet and if all I wanted was a round that went down range and hit a target then I'd be done. If I was looking for accuracy/precision, I'd create some test loads with different powder charges/seating depths to "dial it in". I would treat bullet types (FMJ/HP/Tipped/etc) within a specific group as families and not assume that what works for FMJ works for Polymer tipped, it might but it might not.

Some will play around going lower or higher than published loads to find the elusive "perfect" load and present their results on the internet. Without knowing their experience and exact conditions (firearm specs, temperature, etc, powder lot, primer lot) you will most likely never be able to repeat it. I've loaded several thousand pistol/rifle rounds and have always stuck to the powders recommended by either published manuals or "experts" that I respect based on their experience reloading and shooting in the sport that I participate in. When powder was scarce, you had to look for alternate powders to load your rounds but this was done with care and research - using a pistol powder in a rifle round was a good way to ruin a perfectly good day. There are usually several published powders that will work in your specific round and have always been lucky enough to find one of those in stock or in a buddy's safe. I've never been desperate enough to experiment.

Neck sizing is typically only for bolt guns and only for the one gun you plan on loading for. There are special dies/collets and usually based on selecting a desired neck tension on the projectile. The neck or shoulder is also set by chambering the case to see how hard/easy it is to chamber.
 
Speaking for myself only.

There are some things that I follow to the letter, and there are some things that I use "judgement" on. For things like brass and primers, I will use a degree of judgement. If the book recipe calls for Federal Small Pistol Primers, I read that as saying I need Small Pistol Primers. I pay less attention to the fact that the recipe is calling for Federal brand. I do the same for brass. I have a .260 Remington that ONLY sees Nosler or Lapua Brass, but I also have a 9mm that gets fed whatever I pick up at the end of the club's IDPA nights.

I am a little more picky about bullets. If the bullets are the same weight and the same type, but are from different manufacturers then I will interchange the bullets. If I am using the Hornady book for a recipe, and it has one for VMax, then I personally would not hesitate to use the same recipe for Nosler Varmagedon or for Nosler Accubond bullets of the same weight.

Powder is definitely not interchangeable! As an example, Hodgdon 4198 (H4198) and IMR 4198 (I4198) are similar powders made by the same parent company but they are absolutely not interchangeable.

As for your question about whether to neck size or to full length size, in general, if you are shooting your ammunition from only one bolt action rifle, the neck sizing is OK. It will put less wear and tear on the brass and may increase the brass lifespan. If you are shooting from several (more than one) rifles or from a semi-auto, it is more common to full length size.


Reloading is an equation in which your Primer, your Brass, your Powder and your Bullet are all variables. If you change one of the variables, the equation changes and must be resolved. Some of the variables have more of an effect than other ones do. When you change any of the variables, the safest thing is to go back to the lowest powder load and do a new load work-up. It might not be required, but there is nothing wrong in being safe.

... But that is just what I do. YMMV

One final thought ... any recipe that you see in any source document is what worked, and what was safe in their test gun. They are an extremely good starting point, but your gun will likely yield different results. (Expect that your results will almost certainly fall within the range of the source document though.)
 
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Unfortunately some people are under the false impression, that if they use the components listed in a manual, then the load will produce the same results in their firearm. The simple fact is that contrary to what some people believe, following the exact load recipe in a loading manual can produce loads that are not safe in your firearm. Yes the load was safe in the firearm that the producers of the manual used, but they did not use your firearm, or your particular lot numbers of components. Even if the make and model of the firearm is the same, the barrel and chamber dimensions can vary, and there will always be lot to lot variations in components. As to the COL listed in the manual, it is pretty much meaningless for your firearm, because of variations in the throats of different rifles. Some people get the silly idea that if their rifle is the same make and model as the one used in the manual, and they use the components listed in the manual, that their velocities and pressures will be the same, which is totally unrealistic for the reasons that I have already mentioned.The key to reloading safely, is to learn to recognize signs of excessive pressure, and to always work loads up while watching for these pressure signs. And if you can recognize pressure signs, and you work up your loads, then you can safely use slightly different bullets or different cases or primers.
As to your mention of shoulder/neck size only, you obviously don't understand that neck sizing does not push the should back, so it really doesn't shoulder size. On the other hand, you can use a body die to push the shoulder back without sizing the neck, but that body die also sizes the diameter of the case further back, so it doesn't just push the shoulder back.
 
All good advice above, IMHO. Fact is, we cannot treat the books as holy writ. In the end, we're relying on the safety margins built into the barrels because the single most important data point we really need, the peak chamber pressure, is the one thing we cannot easily measure in our workaday firearms.

I'm starting to be mightly interested in something like this: https://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm
 
Excellent responses above.

The rifle used in the manual to develop loads is different than your rifle. A tighter neck/throat in either one will make a huge difference.

As stated, the loads in the book might be too hot for your rifle. Start with the START load and then adjust up or down, as indicated.

If youc an't measure pressure, then measure velocity. The two are related. If the book says MAx with 4895 is 2800 fps, then when you load 4895, that speed limit is there. It may take you two more or less grains to get that velocity, but the max velocity is a good indicator of the max pressure.

You need to keep a good load log. I dedicate a page to each gun - not to each calibre.
 
Reloading is an ongoing learning process, even for those who have been in it for many years. I'd recommend using reloading manuals as a knowledge baseline instead of shopping around the internet for information. The manuals are the product of extensive ballistics research from well equipped labs and they do come with some degree of liability on the part of the company which publishes them.

Anecdotal evidence and internet opinions are less authoritative. These can be useful, but I'd always use them with a greater degree of vigilance as one cannot qualify the expertise or experience of the people who are putting them forward. Safety trumps everything in reloading.
 
A good indication of the differences between barrels/rifles can be seen just by reading the min/max loads is pick a cal./load and then look it up in a number of different loading books like Hornady/Lyman/Speer. etc. min/max are all different while bullet/primer/powder can all be the same. I often wondered as I had a load or two for my 30.06 that was great but in the book I used was not max but in a couple of others was over max. Then all you can do is go by pressure signs. I am an not a beginner at reloading but I don't reload anywhere near as much as a lot of folks on here. So when I have a question I ask. even if the question may sound dumb to some to others it is not so don't be afraid to ask.
 
purple said:
Reloading is an ongoing learning process, even for those who have been in it for many years. I'd recommend using reloading manuals as a knowledge baseline instead of shopping around the internet for information. The manuals are the product of extensive ballistics research from well equipped labs and they do come with some degree of liability on the part of the company which publishes them.

Anecdotal evidence and internet opinions are less authoritative. These can be useful, but I'd always use them with a greater degree of vigilance as one cannot qualify the expertise or experience of the people who are putting them forward. Safety trumps everything in reloading.
Click to expand...

I have at least one copy of each brand of loading manual on my shelf, and for some companies I have two or three editions.

Each manual devotes a third of the content to general information that is a goldmine to understand. Read and digest this material. It will add greatly to your understanding and enjoyment of the hobby.
 
Very new to reloading, but had been planning for years. As suggested, and I'll echo: Manual's data is based on the test-bed they used. That's not a "must use". The charges listed are usually a range based on the very fact no one will have the exact equip. The start (named for obvious reasons) and th'max. (and possibly a little liability factored in)
Things not to worry about, but take into consideration: Manuals from different publishers, or same publisher but different year/volume will vary. Once you've reloaded a while you'll see your own results will vary (different primer, brass, different lot# for "same" stuff, etc..).

There is a HUGE margin between whipping up safe ammo, and developing a load for an individual rifle. For now I'm still mostly making "general rounds" (will fit any of my rifles in same calibre) and expect "general results". Could kill a deer easily, can hit th'target (not a clover leaf) out to practical shooting distance where I am. I focus on making each of those identical. I have only just begun "developing" a round for a particular rifle.

Enter the "pet loads"...turns out no two rifles sling ammo the same way. Even same make/manufacturer/model rifles can vary with their "tuned" loads. If you really wanna make a clover leaf, you'll tune your ammo to the rifle that slings it. Fastest isn't always most accurate. The general rule to keep in mind is that you should start "safe", and work up or down* to what you need.


*The whole reason I'm reloading is because I got sick of chasing rimfire in bulk. I now load my beloved centerfires as if they were rimfire. For down loading you start safe and work down.
 
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