*** First Spotter Purchase.... What am I missing...? ***

gravis

gravis

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Afternoon Ladies $ Germs ;)

Looking to purchase my first spotting scope on a beer budget ;) $-$$
And wondering if anyone had any words of wisdom to impart?

After countless hours scouting the forums and interwebz, I'm about ready to fall off the fence and buy...

What do I want in a spotter...

I like the idea of FFP reticle, allowing my shooting partner to quickly and accurately calibrate and call shot corrections. As well as allow me to observe read mirage/wind and observe trace etc.

Want something small to mid size (packable), with around 30mm eye relief (glasses)
Never used one before but can't imagine the need for anything much more than 40-50x mag on top end.

Love the idea of glass/size/weight combo of the vortex razor 16-48x65 $$ but reticle only works on big bro 85mm and less than ideal eye relief..

Bushnell excursion or Bushnell Tactical Legend 15-45x60 seem to tick all the boxes and very reasonably priced $ but... I have a sneaking suspicion that I may be largely underwhelmed by glass quality, clarity, sharpness, contrast etc.. Anyone with first hand experience with these bargain beauties?

Bushnell LMSS horus great fit but $$$

Leupold MK 4 20-40x60 mil also seems to fit the bill perfectly but also $$$

Leupold GR impact reticle (MOA based) less than ideal

And a plethora of all the other fantastic optics that unfortunately no reticle...


Is there an option out there I have missed ? Even some old old disco model to keep an eye out for ?

Many thanks in advance,

Joel
 
KONUS 80mm or the 100mm they are great scopes for the dollar I use one for silhouette shooting, the quality of the field of view is on par with the 3500.00 scopes
when you get a Konus take the scope and chuck the tripod, find yourself a transit at a pawn shop they make the best tripod. Or if you do a lot of prone shooting a freeland from Creedmoor shooting supply
 
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I am also very interested in the Bushnell Tactical Legend. I have an ERS and the glass on it is great but it was substantially more money.

The setup is different with the ocular lens on the bottom like that. I have no idea if that would be a drawback in any way.
 
The reticle based spotting scope market is a tough one to be in if you are trying to do it on a fixed budget.
There is a real void in this market just waiting to be filled by a manufacturer who can put something good together and into the hands of shooters for around that $1000 mark.
Right now there are the 2-Bushnell offerings in the shallow end of the pool ( the Excursion is long discontinued) with but a few others before getting far into the deep end; Hensoldt, Swarovski territory.
My opinion; The Bushnell LMSS is overpriced for what it is. The USO's excessive eye relief makes it awkward to use. The Bushnell Legend Tactical is a $500 scope for a reason. The Leupold is long in the tooth but probably the best of the bunch in a Dollar:performance ratio. The Hensoldt and Swaro are stellar but very expensive.
If you are flexible on whether you really want/need a reticle spotter then obviously the choices increase exponentially with some really good optics to be had for <$2000.
 
Please forgive the ignorance, I've yet to look through ANY spotting scope; I realize the mk4 has been around for quite some time with little to no improvements.... Is it really that lacklustre in comparison to other offerings in the same price range? Are there any notable complaints ? What would one be compromising by choosing the mk4 ?

There seems to be the odd one popping up now and again around $1400....

I found a second hand excursion for $600.00, which is to me affordable but have read mixed reviews on glass and QC

Also found a Legend demo for $700.00, again affordable but seems like a re-branded excursion...? However unable to confirm
 
marcoman said:
The Bushnell Legend Tactical is a $500 scope for a reason.
Click to expand...

I get that it's not top of the line but I personally don't need a spotting scope all that badly so I was wondering if it is a decent $500 spotting scope optics wise or are you just paying for the reticle and picatinny rails.
 
I copied this from another site found it very helpful.


In fixed-distance competitive shooting, most of our scope use is for observing mirage, not for seeing exactly where on the target our shots are impacting. In fact, a lot of F-Class riflescopes have enough magnification to spot shots themselves.

Anyhow, what I'm getting to is that you are largely wasting anything above 25x on a highpower range. As you increase power, field of view decreases. With decreasing field of view comes a decreased awareness of what the wind is doing...you don't have as much ability to see what's coming your way.

You also can't scope as many neighbor's targets up and downwind of you to see what the conditions are like before you fire.

Example: Moderate to Stiff wind at 10:00, no flags, cloudy, 800 yards...what do you do? One GOOD answer is to wait a bit and watch the first 1-3 shots on the targets around you. If they all end up on the right side of the bull, then chances are, the conditions are worth more than you (and they) think.

Most elite highpower shooters are using spotting scopes with magnification at 18x-25x, and don't worry with any more. Less, and it can become hard to determine location of holes at long range. More, and mirage becomes so dense that you can't see holes, and your FOV is so small that you don't get a good sense of wind on the WHOLE range...just the little tunnel you're lookin' at right then.

now then, scope:

You want and NEED a 45-degree angle scope body. Period.

I recommend either the Celestron Regal F-ED scopes, or the Pentax PF ED. Both offer good durability and waterproofing, ED glass, fine adjust focus, rotating mount band, et cetera...but the biggest thing they offer is their American standard 1.25" eyepiece mounting sockets.

This is huge, because it allows you to purchase any standard 1.25" astronomical eyepiece, either fixed, or zoom, and plug it right in for a completely different scope performance from the one you had in before. Eyepiece do not receive as much credit as they ought to, because they can make or break the image faster than just about anything else.

Scopes like the Kowa, Zeiss, Leica ("The Big Three") use PROPRIETARY bayonet mounts for their scopes, so that only their eyepieces will fit. This way, they sell more shtuff, see?

Lower end scopes have fixed eyepieces that cannot be changes for anything else, and are generally not high quality anyhow. Trust me, I've been there and done that...no good for serious work.

Their are literally hundreds of eyepiece available. MOST are not waterproof, and this is a feature you MUST have on a highpower range.

The Pentax XW series 1.25" eyepieces and are recognized around the world as some of the absolute best available. Just trundle over to any birding or astronomy forum and see. They are a far better EP than most of the proprietary ones available for The Big Three's scopes. Among other good features, keys are: waterproof, offer 70-degree field of view (excellent), and fixed 20mm eye relief (excellent) for easy use with shooting glasses.

Put one of these suckers in a Celestron or Pentax ED-glass scope, and prepare to be amazed. For cross-course shooting, I use a Celestron Regal 65 paired with the Pentax XW 20 eyepiece.


To determine end magnification of your scope with an eyepiece:

Focal length of scope / Focal length of eyepiece = Magnification in powers.
Example: Celestron Regal ED 65 = 386mm Focal Length
Pentax XW 20 = 20mm Focal Length

386mm/20mm = 19.3x Magnification

The Vixen Geoma-II scopes accept 1.25" EP and have received good reviews as well, but may be outside your price range with a good eyepiece.


Alright, I'm done.
-Nate
 
Buy quality or you will be sorry. Yes, you will spend a lot of money to have a "tactical" spotting scope, but if you buy quality you'll be set. Better to save a bit longer than to buy some POS that you'll end up disappointed in.
 
cdnrokon said:
KONUS 80mm or the 100mm they are great scopes for the dollar I use one for silhouette shooting, the quality of the field of view is on par with the 3500.00 scopes
when you get a Konus take the scope and chuck the tripod, find yourself a transit at a pawn shop they make the best tripod. Or if you do a lot of prone shooting a freeland from Creedmoor shooting supply
Click to expand...

At what ranges can you resolve bullet holes and at what power range?
 
gravis said:
Please forgive the ignorance, I've yet to look through ANY spotting scope; I realize the mk4 has been around for quite some time with little to no improvements.... Is it really that lacklustre in comparison to other offerings in the same price range? Are there any notable complaints ? What would one be compromising by choosing the mk4 ?

There seems to be the odd one popping up now and again around $1400....

I found a second hand excursion for $600.00, which is to me affordable but have read mixed reviews on glass and QC

Also found a Legend demo for $700.00, again affordable but seems like a re-branded excursion...? However unable to confirm
Click to expand...

The Leupold is probably the best choice among all those you listed if you don't mind the higher cost. I didn't mean to imply that it was somehow sub par. It's a solid product with good optical quality and good support from the manufacturer. It would be my choice in this group.

The new Bushnell would be tempting to try based simply on its price point. I played around with it a bit at Shot Show earlier this year. It was a solid little scope that offers a lot for the money. The reticle in that particular unit was "wonky" (to borrow someones elses technical description) as the distance between the graduations was not equal. It was a pre-production unit so I would worry to much about this. Optically it seemed decent for as much as could be determined in a conference center. Maybe for $700 it would be worth trying. I would probably go this route over a used Excursion.
 
twosmokinspades said:
I copied this from another site found it very helpful.


In fixed-distance competitive shooting, most of our scope use is for observing mirage, not for seeing exactly where on the target our shots are impacting. In fact, a lot of F-Class riflescopes have enough magnification to spot shots themselves.

Anyhow, what I'm getting to is that you are largely wasting anything above 25x on a highpower range. As you increase power, field of view decreases. With decreasing field of view comes a decreased awareness of what the wind is doing...you don't have as much ability to see what's coming your way.

You also can't scope as many neighbor's targets up and downwind of you to see what the conditions are like before you fire.

Example: Moderate to Stiff wind at 10:00, no flags, cloudy, 800 yards...what do you do? One GOOD answer is to wait a bit and watch the first 1-3 shots on the targets around you. If they all end up on the right side of the bull, then chances are, the conditions are worth more than you (and they) think.

Most elite highpower shooters are using spotting scopes with magnification at 18x-25x, and don't worry with any more. Less, and it can become hard to determine location of holes at long range. More, and mirage becomes so dense that you can't see holes, and your FOV is so small that you don't get a good sense of wind on the WHOLE range...just the little tunnel you're lookin' at right then.

now then, scope:

You want and NEED a 45-degree angle scope body. Period.

I recommend either the Celestron Regal F-ED scopes, or the Pentax PF ED. Both offer good durability and waterproofing, ED glass, fine adjust focus, rotating mount band, et cetera...but the biggest thing they offer is their American standard 1.25" eyepiece mounting sockets.

This is huge, because it allows you to purchase any standard 1.25" astronomical eyepiece, either fixed, or zoom, and plug it right in for a completely different scope performance from the one you had in before. Eyepiece do not receive as much credit as they ought to, because they can make or break the image faster than just about anything else.

Scopes like the Kowa, Zeiss, Leica ("The Big Three") use PROPRIETARY bayonet mounts for their scopes, so that only their eyepieces will fit. This way, they sell more shtuff, see?

Lower end scopes have fixed eyepieces that cannot be changes for anything else, and are generally not high quality anyhow. Trust me, I've been there and done that...no good for serious work.

Their are literally hundreds of eyepiece available. MOST are not waterproof, and this is a feature you MUST have on a highpower range.

The Pentax XW series 1.25" eyepieces and are recognized around the world as some of the absolute best available. Just trundle over to any birding or astronomy forum and see. They are a far better EP than most of the proprietary ones available for The Big Three's scopes. Among other good features, keys are: waterproof, offer 70-degree field of view (excellent), and fixed 20mm eye relief (excellent) for easy use with shooting glasses.

Put one of these suckers in a Celestron or Pentax ED-glass scope, and prepare to be amazed. For cross-course shooting, I use a Celestron Regal 65 paired with the Pentax XW 20 eyepiece.


To determine end magnification of your scope with an eyepiece:

Focal length of scope / Focal length of eyepiece = Magnification in powers.
Example: Celestron Regal ED 65 = 386mm Focal Length
Pentax XW 20 = 20mm Focal Length

386mm/20mm = 19.3x Magnification

The Vixen Geoma-II scopes accept 1.25" EP and have received good reviews as well, but may be outside your price range with a good eyepiece.


Alright, I'm done.
-Nate
Click to expand...


Just found that one last night myself, thanks for posting!
 
BigUglyMan said:
Buy quality or you will be sorry. Yes, you will spend a lot of money to have a "tactical" spotting scope, but if you buy quality you'll be set. Better to save a bit longer than to buy some POS that you'll end up disappointed in.
Click to expand...

I share your sentiments, however I need to start out somewhere as I have no glass ATM...otherwise I'll be sitting on the sidelines over the next two seasons while I save up 2k
 
marcoman said:
The Leupold is probably the best choice among all those you listed if you don't mind the higher cost. I didn't mean to imply that it was somehow sub par. It's a solid product with good optical quality and good support from the manufacturer. It would be my choice in this group.

The new Bushnell would be tempting to try based simply on its price point. I played around with it a bit at Shot Show earlier this year. It was a solid little scope that offers a lot for the money. The reticle in that particular unit was "wonky" (to borrow someones elses technical description) as the distance between the graduations was not equal. It was a pre-production unit so I would worry to much about this. Optically it seemed decent for as much as could be determined in a conference center. Maybe for $700 it would be worth trying. I would probably go this route over a used Excursion.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation! Have you ever handled/viewed the Excursion in comparison ?
The specs online appear identical less the reticle and I might be able to squeeze a better deal out of the guy selling...
 
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If you are spotting for a shooter, why not just look through your scope?

The best value in what you want is in a quality rifle optic like the sightrons. WAY better glass for the money. hash mark reticles. lots of eye relief and field of view.

Spotters in your budget new tend to have all the issues you chat about and I am unaware of any with reticle AND good glass.

If hunting and you do not want to "aim" at a target especially if not game, then get a Pentax 65ED spotter with appropriate fixed eye piece.

Spotters of quality cost money.

If you need to see bullet holes at LR, forget about any spotter and get a camera system. I can offer the new Caldwell LR camera system. now you can see the target and bullet holes at any distance you care to shoot regardless of amount of mirage.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
If you are spotting for a shooter, why not just look through your scope?

The best value in what you want is in a quality rifle optic like the sightrons. WAY better glass for the money. hash mark reticles. lots of eye relief and field of view.

Spotters in your budget new tend to have all the issues you chat about and I am unaware of any with reticle AND good glass.

If hunting and you do not want to "aim" at a target especially if not game, then get a Pentax 65ED spotter with appropriate fixed eye piece.

Spotters of quality cost money.

If you need to see bullet holes at LR, forget about any spotter and get a camera system. I can offer the new Caldwell LR camera system. now you can see the target and bullet holes at any distance you care to shoot regardless of amount of mirage.

Jerry
Click to expand...

I have one long range rifle with decent glass 4-16x50
Want to be able to use a spotter solo/tandem when hunting and when at the range. When buddy is along; he can spot for me... call corrections... Etc
 
Whats the price of the Caldwell system? Do you have one on hand.

Mystic Precision said:
If you are spotting for a shooter, why not just look through your scope?

The best value in what you want is in a quality rifle optic like the sightrons. WAY better glass for the money. hash mark reticles. lots of eye relief and field of view.

Spotters in your budget new tend to have all the issues you chat about and I am unaware of any with reticle AND good glass.

If hunting and you do not want to "aim" at a target especially if not game, then get a Pentax 65ED spotter with appropriate fixed eye piece.

Spotters of quality cost money.

If you need to see bullet holes at LR, forget about any spotter and get a camera system. I can offer the new Caldwell LR camera system. now you can see the target and bullet holes at any distance you care to shoot regardless of amount of mirage.

Jerry
Click to expand...
 
I cannot post pricing on open forum... pm or better.. email. info@mysticprecision.com

Yes, I will have some units coming up later in June and taking orders. I have a quick write up on my facebook page (mystic precision inc)

I am very impressed with how complete and simple the system is to use. Yeah, there are quirks and limitations (mostly because I need a 12 yr old to work the IPad) but it would be hard to replicate by buying your own parts and building your own system (yes, I have also done this).

gravis, this is the common hurdle LR shooters face. They are on a budget and need to be able to view objects at LR. Unfortunately, good glass costs money and sometimes, alot of it. Cheaper stuff today usually leads to some dissappointment in the field - like fogging or lack of clarity or poor eye relief or way too much plastic or ......

The best value in non rifle scope glass is the Porro Prism bino. Here you can get a Nikon 12X50 for a very reasonable price ($200'ish or so). Huge field of view and plenty good glass to spot impacts at distance... really, I have done this for years - still use it. It is far more comfy to use then peering through a cheap eyepiece with no eye relief and crappy focus. They can be mounted to a tripod just like any spotter and really are far more comfy to use for long periods of time.

If hunting, you first spot your quarry THEN you look at the detail. Here binos are my friend. I might use a spotter once I find the target and need to confirm head gear (many better binos will already let you make that decision at moderate distances). More often, I find them with my better Nikon binos... since I know it is game, I "spot" with my rifle scope and send the bullet if desired. You get way more optics in a quality bino then what you pay for a spotter.

Again, for the money spent, a quality rifle scope offers far more utility then a spotter AND you already have one on your rifle. Shooting with a friend, have scopes with the same reticle units and away you go....

If paper punching, there is no spotter at any price that will let you see bullet holes at moderate to long distances. here the camera system is golden. I spot my bullets holes at 250yds with my rifle scope.

For me, the spotter is to see the air when I compete. For field useage, there are other more user friendly options for less money.

Jerry
 
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