870 Project Gun Question
- Thread starter rkm456
- Start date
Dexter Morgan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
My 870 is an Express model. I have a friend who has a Wingmaster. (He paid double what I paid.)
The finish on his receiver, barrel, and also the wood stock are all very nice. No argument there.
But the actual mechanics of the gun look exactly the same to me. Same blueprints. Same parts.
Maybe I'm wrong but it might not just be the finish difference.
Possible they put a bit more into the "finishing" of the Wingmaster and the Police model ? As in smooth out the parts a bit more? My 870P's seem smoother than the Express models I've tried.
Just speculation, I have no imperial evidence on this.
rommelrommel
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The parts are the same dimensions but not the same material, construction, or finish in all cases.
If you can get a used wingmaster for the price of a new express, it's worth bucking up for the short barrel IMO. I think the express will serve you well tho, and if you want to swap in the better critical parts they aren't all that expensive. I have an 870P, an express, and a dominion arms. The 870P is by far the better gun. Of the other two I'd pick the express, but it's a much older express and I hear they are more poorly finished these days.
If you can get a used wingmaster for the price of a new express, it's worth bucking up for the short barrel IMO. I think the express will serve you well tho, and if you want to swap in the better critical parts they aren't all that expensive. I have an 870P, an express, and a dominion arms. The 870P is by far the better gun. Of the other two I'd pick the express, but it's a much older express and I hear they are more poorly finished these days.
If we're talking older wingmasters, the finish may be worn off in some places anyways unless you find a safe queen or nicely cared for gun .... I think the decision to go with a wingmaster should be based on the belief it has a smoother action rather than finish alone.
This is a very good point. When people make the argument that "An older wingmaster is the same price as an express" they certainly aren't in the same condition. I can get a super mag in really good condition for what I'll pay for a WM that needs quite a bit of tlc.
I definitely agree the old wingmasters are night and day to the express. Lay them side by side and it's plain as day. Express is pretty gritty without some smoothing and polishing.
A broken in Wingmaster will pretty much cycle itself by tilting the gun barrel up and barrel down.
A broken in Wingmaster will pretty much cycle itself by tilting the gun barrel up and barrel down.
I'm not particularly worried about what according to you "all of you" suppose to know about me, because there is no such knowledge to start with. Yes, I'm not a fan, but I used to be trained on 870 and re-certified every year. I used to own couple of 870s and competed with one. Taking all that into account and also the fact that I'm working in the gun store these days an I've seen a fair share of 870s coming from the factory up close along with other brands of shotguns helped me to form an opinion. It's however just my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.
Now, back to the topic. Information is actually posted out there on Remington website for those who are slightly more inquisitive and are willing to skip all the marketing BS from...Remington. Just pull up that parts list from the Remington site and compare the Express and 870P internal parts. If you are not willing to do it, look for the post from the Remington Factory Certified Law Enforcement Armorer that goes by the nickname "Aippi" on-line. May be interesting read for some. Bottom line is that there is no difference in the action of a police, a wingmaster, and an express. They are the same gun. Finish and maybe $13 worth of parts is all there is to it.
No problem...and please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying "don't buy 870". No Sir. It's a good shotgun as long as one understands its shortcomings and required modifications. However out of the box there are more functional shotguns for less money out there these days. Fairy tales about different parts between different models and separate assembly line for one model of the shotgun...are just that. Fairy tales. In fact, as one can easily find out, some of the parts on Express are more expansive than the ones on Police. Yes, Express will require some work (most often - polishing the chamber and refinishing), but otherwise it's a good point to start. Of course 30 years old Wingmaster is more smooth than a new Express, but that's because it was used for 30 years. 30 years old Express will be pretty damn smooth too. No worries. If one wants to adopt the old Wingmaster and turn it into a defensive tool, one needs to buy the flexi-tab first. Also, please don't pay attention to the "metal trigger guard" BS. Actually the polymer one is more rugged and will take more abuse. If an old 870 doesn't cycle as smooth as it used to be, the very first thing to do is to replace the forend assembly. Usually the action bars are just slightly bented. Enjoy your shotgun!
Nestor,
Appreciate the insight.
There is no debate on the finish difference, I think we all agree on that.
Other than the flex-tab, what are the $13 difference in parts between the Express and Police versions ? In your experience, what are the 870 short comings and required mods ? If my understanding is correct, in order to go with the flex tab there are a couple mods that have to go along with it... is this what you are referring to or are there other essential modifications ?
Agreed, a well broke in 870 is bound to run smoother than and new out of the box 870 of any flavour.
870 certain is getting a run for its money these days. Some good relatively inexpensive SG's on the market now.
Appreciate the insight.
There is no debate on the finish difference, I think we all agree on that.
Other than the flex-tab, what are the $13 difference in parts between the Express and Police versions ? In your experience, what are the 870 short comings and required mods ? If my understanding is correct, in order to go with the flex tab there are a couple mods that have to go along with it... is this what you are referring to or are there other essential modifications ?
Agreed, a well broke in 870 is bound to run smoother than and new out of the box 870 of any flavour.
870 certain is getting a run for its money these days. Some good relatively inexpensive SG's on the market now.
I believe that one can buy the complete flexi-tab kit from Brownells, but I'm not 100% on that. It used to be that way. To understand a bit more about it, take a look here:
http://rifleshooter.com/2015/03/remington-870-flexitab-system-and-parts-identification/
I experienced quite a few of these malfunctions (probably induced by myself under pressure of speed and stress) and I do consider this kit as essential upgrade.
Smashing the stock against the ground cleared all of these malfunctions just fine.
I know that Tactical Ordnance can modify the bolt when you want just the flexi-tab itself...which is cheaper than the whole kit, so the choice if yours.
On the new 870 polishing the chamber is the must do. These chambers are rough and extraction may be a problem. On a new Express, I would refinish the shotgun too. I keep pulling these shotguns, new out of the box and rusting very nice already.
While there is a lot of talking about the tool steel extractor...I never witnessed a MIM extractor fail. Ever. Take it for whatever it's worth.
During one competition however we had a total fail on one Police model due to the magazine tube spring breakage, so I would invest in a good quality spring for sure and keep one spare handy.
Personally I like 13" buttstock the best, but you need to establish the size yourself. One of the ever present issue with 870 is the loading. I can't remember how many times I've seen the thumbs bleeding. While you are going sloooow, it's just fine, but when you fighting with time or stress, that finger is going to get pinched between the shell carrier and the wall of the receiver. Not nice.
http://rifleshooter.com/2015/03/remington-870-flexitab-system-and-parts-identification/
I experienced quite a few of these malfunctions (probably induced by myself under pressure of speed and stress) and I do consider this kit as essential upgrade.
Smashing the stock against the ground cleared all of these malfunctions just fine.
I know that Tactical Ordnance can modify the bolt when you want just the flexi-tab itself...which is cheaper than the whole kit, so the choice if yours.
On the new 870 polishing the chamber is the must do. These chambers are rough and extraction may be a problem. On a new Express, I would refinish the shotgun too. I keep pulling these shotguns, new out of the box and rusting very nice already.
While there is a lot of talking about the tool steel extractor...I never witnessed a MIM extractor fail. Ever. Take it for whatever it's worth.
During one competition however we had a total fail on one Police model due to the magazine tube spring breakage, so I would invest in a good quality spring for sure and keep one spare handy.
Personally I like 13" buttstock the best, but you need to establish the size yourself. One of the ever present issue with 870 is the loading. I can't remember how many times I've seen the thumbs bleeding. While you are going sloooow, it's just fine, but when you fighting with time or stress, that finger is going to get pinched between the shell carrier and the wall of the receiver. Not nice.
The Police and Wingmaster have a steel extractor and the Express a MIM extractor. The police has one small spring different then the Express or Wingmaster and that is it (I'm not even sure if Remington is still using that spring to be honest). All other parts are the same except for the trigger plate assembly on Wingmaster I believe (which is a metal of some sort vs plastic on Express and Police). Rest is just a plain marketing magic.
This all makes a lot of sense. To be honest my initial post came about because I was really close to clicking "Buy Now" on a 12.5" Norinco the other night, but thought "I should ask around first" because admittedly I know little about 870's of their clones. A Norc and an Express aren't priced that far apart and that's where my OP came from. I certainly have no issue with putting some time into a project to refine things (which is why I thought a Norc might be a better starting point. After hearing from a few people though, it sounds like the Norincos are not just rough, but often guys have fitment issues with stocks and sometimes other parts. With all the posts and the couple PM's that this thread has generated I can tell you for certain that not a single person has said "Get the Norinco" It's either "Find a WM" or "An Express is just as good" So ultimately I was able to deduce the answer I was looking for.
Before I move onto an 870 though, I need to finish up the 2 little projects I'm currently waiting on parts for
