Experiences shooting long range (1000m and more)

[Shawn_338]

Myself and a buddy have a private range that we can shoot out to about 1600y. Right now we have a few targets ranging from 350 to 1000. The heat has been crazy down here lately so been using the mirage to call the wind. It's a learning curve to say the least. When I buy a kestrel it'll be the one with the AB system in it. Been using isnipe app and it's been working really good so far.

If you zoom in on the pic you'll see the targets in the distance

 

[Trevor60]

Couple of thoughts

if you are putting up your own target put up two flags one near the target maybe 10 feet to the right or left and in front and a second one 100 yards away from your shooting position. you can reference the flag against the surrounding vegatation. you can use marking tape.

you need to find out your velocity so i am hoping you have chrony'd your load.
to get accurate ballistics DOPE you need to enter the correct data velocity, temp, barometric pressure, scope height. if using JBM and printing out your elevation print two reports using different temps with the second being 10degree C or 20 degree F higher then the base number.
if you have a mildot scope great if not think of getting one it will allow faster follow up shots
getting a scope bubble level is helpful the further out you go. failing that when putting up the target if you make sure it is prefectly sqaure you can line up the cross hairs on the corner before each shot to see if you have any cant in your rifle.

If you have a smart phone and a spotting scope by a digital photo adapter and connect your phone to the scope. press video that way you can watch your shots.

All the best
Trevor

 

[358Rooster]

To get accurate DOPE, you need to get out and shoot. Yes, gadgets will help you get close but in order to obtain accurate data for your rifle, load, and environmentals to be useful for the next time(s) you shoot, there is no replacement for POI verification at multiple ranges in multiple conditions. Flags, tape, and other indicators are very useful and should be used as often as possible and correlated with mirage, grass, trees, etc. when on the range collecting data - this will help tremendously when you get into a hunting or competition situation where there are no flags.

A good data book and good record keeping skills are your firiends. A good spotter is invaluable. Don't forget about bullet trace - if conditions are favourable for it, it tells you quite a bit.

Training for anything requires consistency and frequency. Skills are perishable. Get out as much as possible and be honest and critical with yourself and make good use of time. When I get lazy and start thinking, "f@ck it, I'm just gonna pound away and have some fun....", I pack it up for the day now because that sort of mind set messes with my goals and starts allowing bad things to happen with my technique and focus. Just like muscles, once the mind has had enough exercise, it's time for a rest and a reset.

Lastly, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot!

Rooster

 

[JoKa]

Did 1006 yards with mine on a 12" gong. Does that get me in the convo?

Using 700 5r milspec, with an NF scope pushing some 175smk no problems. (asides from working on my wind calls)

 

[6MT]

To get accurate DOPE, you need to get out and shoot. Yes, gadgets will help you get close but in order to obtain accurate data for your rifle, load, and environmentals to be useful for the next time(s) you shoot, there is no replacement for POI verification at multiple ranges in multiple conditions. Flags, tape, and other indicators are very useful and should be used as often as possible and correlated with mirage, grass, trees, etc. when on the range collecting data - this will help tremendously when you get into a hunting or competition situation where there are no flags.

A good data book and good record keeping skills are your firiends. A good spotter is invaluable. Don't forget about bullet trace - if conditions are favourable for it, it tells you quite a bit.

Training for anything requires consistency and frequency. Skills are perishable. Get out as much as possible and be honest and critical with yourself and make good use of time. When I get lazy and start thinking, "f@ck it, I'm just gonna pound away and have some fun....", I pack it up for the day now because that sort of mind set messes with my goals and starts allowing bad things to happen with my technique and focus. Just like muscles, once the mind has had enough exercise, it's time for a rest and a reset.

Lastly, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot!

Rooster

^This!!

 

[Mystic Precision]

From the ground up.... consider:

Set up to shoot prone... precious few ranges let you shoot to 1000yds and further from a bench. Never met a portable bench that was as stable as terra firma. Most have access to crown land and out in BC, logging has created miles of open terrain to play on.

Look at the FTR type bipods for peak accuracy AND if going to larger cals, ones with less moving parts. Wobbly, sprung bipods are so much harder to use when precision ELR shooting is desired. Pedestal rests work too but more of a pain to set up and carry.

Rifle - peak accuracy is NOT that big a deal wrt to ELR shooting. Consistency and stability is far more important. Sub MOA is the goal... less is great but don't sweat on the cost to build a 1/4 min rig (not to start anyways). Know what the barrel does as it heats up. It is super easy to chase the puff of dust and barrels get hot... many factory barrels start to warp or change tuning so now you are wasting ammo chasing ghosts. What you need is a rig that is dead stable from cold to as hot as you run it. "stress" test the rig.... at 100 or 200yds, put aiming points in a horizontal line and shoot 5rds groups at each. Look for any change in POI or group size from 1st rd to shots 15 and 20rds at a 15 sec pace per shot... yes, the barrel will be screaming hot.... may as well know now before wasting alot of time missing in the field.

LR wind doping is all about trusting your gears cone of accuracy.

Ammo - spend lots of time here making the most consistent ammo with the lowest vertical (use the best scales you can)... this is what kills you at ELR distances. You want match quality handloads with the right bullet. Lots of info on my website. Even factory rifles will benefit... garbage in, garbage out and very slight variations in your trajectory is going to drive you insane at long distances. I call it ping pong... you can put bullets this side, then that side but no matter what you do, it just doesn't seem to land in the same place twice.

The high and low ping pong is the most painful....

Bullets - many new gen bullets are designed for super sonic flight and suck at transonic/subsonic flight or need non conventional twist... TEST, TEST, TEST

Optics - Use a scope with a record of tracking properly, reliably... These show up at F class matches. You do not need to spend quantum bucks.. just depend on brands with the right engineering. Many scopes have wonderful rating on elevation adjustments but optics tank at the extremes of travel. Spend time here to learn what works and what is just bling. Learn about a tall target test... lots of scopes fail this. Glass that can see mirage will be extremely helpful unless you plan to shoot with a spotting scope that can.

Mirage is you friend!!!!

Base and rings - use quality products.. lots to choose from. I prefer steel on boomers or high rd count rifles for a base. For rings, Burris rings with inserts are SOOOO easy to use for setting up the shim you need. The further you go, the more important proper scope zero becomes. Mechanical bases are interesting but really not needed until you break the mile...

Cartridge - Having pushed a 223 to a mile, there are so many options today to get into ELR shooting. Bigger is usually easier to drive but many mid size cals (6.5 and 7mm) work superbly. Even the 6BR can be an effective 1 mile gong smasher with the right bullet and set up. Just keep an eye on costs. When you are in the field LR shooting, you can burn up alot of ammo (50rds is not much) so cost of ammo and rifle wear becomes very important. There are lots of 50BMGs, 338LM's sitting in closets.

Muzzle velocity is only important if you are going to limit distances to whatever the supersonic flight is... this gets real expensive real fast if you want to go well beyond 1000m. I much prefer to use a bullet that will go subsonic... eventually, EVERYTHING goes subsonic. A club in Montana/Idaho shot 308's to 2km... really loud lawn darts.... big target on the prairie floor

wind drift... yeah, it is going to move and huge amounts. Put up as many flags as you can... wind changes direction and intensity over large distances. Shoot into large open terrain with hopefully grass or dirt so you can see the dust kick up with the bullet arrive. Don't worry, even an 80gr Amax kicks up dust at 1 mile....

The work is done at 300yds... beyond that, it is up to shot delivery, bullet stability and your ability to figure out what the wind is doing. Don't get too hung up on target size as you get way out there. 1/2 min at 300yds, might only be MOA at 1000yds and maybe 2.5 MOA at 1mile. Things are going to move around. Part of the fun of ELR shooting is actually hitting the target....

Shoot, shoot, shoot... don't get hung up that your smart phone is not all that smart. Gravity and atmosphere never got the update. Focus on gear that is reliable and repeats... everything else gets tossed.

Jerry

 

[gunlaker]

Thanks for the insight! What kestrel do you use?

I'm using a Kestrel 4500. I didn't seek out that particular model though.

For what I do, really I just use it to get a feel for wind speed and how it's affecting flags, or smoke ( our rifles make a pile of smoke which is a reasonable indicator of what the wind is doing near you ). Temperature and humidity is nice as these things affect barrel condition in my type of rifle hugely, which in turn affects muzzle velocity variation. Muzzle velocity variation is of of the biggest enemies as it gives you random vertical dispersion which eventually makes you crazy

Chris.

 

[LongBomber]

I like to shoot my drops out to 500 yards carefully recoding conditions. A chrony and ballistic programs still need real world validation. I find a load that shoots well at 300 yards and shoot my drops at 100-200-300-400-500 and see how the groups hold up. See the pic below- these were two shots at each distance, but normally I use three. If groups hold up at 500 I have collected good data to start going much longer.

 

[LongBomber]

Jerry had some great advice right there. Build or buy a rifle setup that is consistent, and you can afford to shot. ALOT. The cost of steeping up to 338 is basically double the smaller calibers. I shoot a 6.5-284 and a 300wsm most of the time, and play with my 338 edge enough to keep the wind calls ok with it. It does make a difference to push a higher bc bullet, the error in your wind calls goes down a few inches at 1000 fairly easily, but hp costs $$$.
Make sure your scope is calibrated, I doubt any scope is perfect over its entire travel range, and a tall target shot at 100 yards with groups every 5moa for the height of the target will tell you alot. I typically use moa scopes and run the tall target for 25 moa which gets me to or close to 1000 yards depending on the rifle. I use isnipe on a ipad and have the scope on each rifle plugged into the program with the true adjustments per click.
Make sure your baseline data is solid, and stretching out distance becomes much less frustrating.

 

[3of30]

In regards to the winds effects on POI, I have been reading some mixed things. Some people say it is the wind that is 2/3 of the way to the target that is most important to read, while others say the wind at the firing position is most important. Because if the bullet is shifted slightly early in its flight, it will translate to a much larger POI down range.

Thoughts?

 

[ivo]

In regards to the winds effects on POI, I have been reading some mixed things. Some people say it is the wind that is 2/3 of the way to the target that is most important to read, while others say the wind at the firing position is most important. Because if the bullet is shifted slightly early in its flight, it will translate to a much larger POI down range.

Thoughts?

No to sound too vague about your question but if you are shooting across a valley and the wind at the firing position is from 3 o'clock at 3 mph and half way across the valley it is from 9 o'clock at 15 mph, you will want to compensate more for the left to right wind.
Having said that, the wind starts to affect the bullet the moment it leaves the barrel which is why many suggest that wind at the firing position is most important.
Experienced F class guys are a wealth of knowledge for these types of questions.
I would tend to agree that much of the time, the wind call at the firing position is the more influential factor opposed to the wind 2/3 of the way to the target.

 

[arcticcathonda]

No to sound too vague about your question but if you are shooting across a valley and the wind at the firing position is from 3 o'clock at 3 mph and half way across the valley it is from 9 o'clock at 15 mph, you will want to compensate more for the left to right wind.
Having said that, the wind starts to affect the bullet the moment it leaves the barrel which is why many suggest that wind at the firing position is most important.
Experienced F class guys are a wealth of knowledge for these types of questions.
I would tend to agree that much of the time, the wind call at the firing position is the more influential factor opposed to the wind 2/3 of the way to the target.

Unless there is no wind at the firing position and a 30mph crosswind 2/3 way to the target....

 

[gunlaker]

As physics guy I can tell you that under uniform conditions across the range, wind at the firing line is definitely the most important. But I have never seen it that simple. Due to wind variances and terrain, each location is a little bit different. This is not because the physics is wrong, but because generally the wind is not even close to uniform across 1000 yards. Even at 500 you can have some very interesting differences across the range, and not paying attention to everything will definitely cost you.

Chris.

 

[Mystic Precision]

In regards to the winds effects on POI, I have been reading some mixed things. Some people say it is the wind that is 2/3 of the way to the target that is most important to read, while others say the wind at the firing position is most important. Because if the bullet is shifted slightly early in its flight, it will translate to a much larger POI down range.

Thoughts?

Wind is not a single entity. Any more then 1 wave is more important then another on a beach. Wind doping is creating a firing solution based on the ALL the wind currents you can see... some you simply can't. So the near/far wind debate is a very rudimentary way to explain a complex issue.

My fave wind books are by Keith Cunningham/Linda Miller and Nancy Tompkins. You will get the basics of what is going on and be able to understand the "math" of it... then you go shoot and the ART of wind reading takes over.

There is no 1 answer ... the wind, or better - the condition, you focus on is the one that has the most affect on your trajectory. It can be near, it can be far.. but the correct answer is, it is the sum of ALL the air you shoot through.

And, if you shoot far enough, it will not stay the same for long....

Jerry

 

[KePet]

So what you're saying Jerry is that you take all of your hard statistics, and known variables. Add them together with any possible unknown variables (which will be unknown to you). Do the calculations. Add in some WAG. Smoke and mirrors!!! And VIOLA: you have your firing solution? LOL

I've shot with Rooster, and I've known Jerry for a few years both as a member of the community and as a vendor/site sponsor. They both know what they are talking about. At the end of the day you can read all you want, and listen to all the different internet opinions on wind, but the only thing that gets you there is experience - shooting, shooting, and more shooting! Jerry tried to get this through my head over 5 years ago, but it took me until now, and a weekend with Rooster and the boys to get me to shoot out to 1000. Now I've got a new barrel coming from Jerry so I can go further.

Equipment doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg, but get good solid equipment. Buy the best you can, and when you can afford it upgrade. Techno goodies are great, and there are some that will make the shots easier, but it's still the man behind the gun that makes the difference. There were 1 mile shots made a long time before rangefinders, and ballistic calculators were made

 

[SteveB]

Regarding the wind and potential changes as discussed above.

I was shooting a 1000 yard match in Sacramento several years ago in rainy windy miserable conditions. The range is located in a shallow trench but as you shoot to 1000 yards the bullets rise out of the trench and are exposed to the winds conditions. We were shooting in about 20 - 30 mph crosswinds that were also swirling around the top of the trench. It was also pouring rain and the rain was coming in at a angle.

The humidity was so high you could see the bullet trace as it arched to the target. The bullets actually moved left then right then back left as they arched over to the target as they moved from the cover of the trench up into the open air and then down to the target. Very interesting to see.

The ballistic charts were limited value that day!!

 

[Mystic Precision]

So what you're saying Jerry is that you take all of your hard statistics, and known variables. Add them together with any possible unknown variables (which will be unknown to you). Do the calculations. Add in some WAG. Smoke and mirrors!!! And VIOLA: you have your firing solution? LOL

I've shot with Rooster, and I've known Jerry for a few years both as a member of the community and as a vendor/site sponsor. They both know what they are talking about. At the end of the day you can read all you want, and listen to all the different internet opinions on wind, but the only thing that gets you there is experience - shooting, shooting, and more shooting! Jerry tried to get this through my head over 5 years ago, but it took me until now, and a weekend with Rooster and the boys to get me to shoot out to 1000. Now I've got a new barrel coming from Jerry so I can go further.

Equipment doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg, but get good solid equipment. Buy the best you can, and when you can afford it upgrade. Techno goodies are great, and there are some that will make the shots easier, but it's still the man behind the gun that makes the difference. There were 1 mile shots made a long time before rangefinders, and ballistic calculators were made

We call that "SIGHTER 1".

Then peddle as fast as you can..... You should see and hear a US firing line when condition holds and they string fire

Fun, fun, fun...

Jerry

 

[Rman]

Did 1006 yards with mine on a 12" gong. Does that get me in the convo?

Using 700 5r milspec, with an NF scope pushing some 175smk no problems. (asides from working on my wind calls)

It does, if they were first round hits, without walking them in!

A journal in the most valuable tool a fellow can have for LR shooting. Log everything. Conditions, including pressure, etc. Next is some kind of wind flags, preferably more than a few, between you, and the target. Then start the process of learning how to read them.

A guy that can make shots, into a group, at distance, without walking the shots in, truly knows his stuff. This same guy, would happen to have a fairly thick journal beside him, and would have shot in all sorts of conditions.

Our group has shot to a mile, but first round hits at that distance are rare. Everyone can shoot an MOA or less group at any distance, once they are on target.

358Rooster nailed it in his response.
Jerry, as always, has some great points as well.

R.

 

[3of30]

My fave wind books are by Keith Cunningham/Linda Miller and Nancy Tompkins. You will get the basics of what is going on and be able to understand the "math" of it... then you go shoot and the ART of wind reading takes over.

Just received "The Wind Book For Rifle Shooters" and it is fantastic. Lots of great information for anyone new to shooting long range. I like how they explain the math behind the calculations. Makes it easy to understand and formulate firing solutions. Cannot wait to hit the range and try it out this weekend.

 

[saltbait]

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