Starter kit for BP revolver

bobdbldr

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Hi folks, just wondering if anyone knows the best place ( inexpensive) to get a starter kit for BP revolver? I have a Pietta 1851 in .44 coming and was hoping there was a kit to get me going with the flask nipple wrench etc,,, or is it better to buy individual gear,, if so, what is a good quality name for equipment. I also read it is better to replace the nipples with better quality to avoid problems.
Thanks for your time.
Cheers Bob
 
X3 for Track of the Wolf. As for replacing the nipples right off the start; it really depends on what you are planning to do with it. If you are planning to do Cowboy Action or some other timed activity where a stoppage or FTF would be critical, maybe. If you are just plinking or shooting for shts'n'giggles, where elapsed time is really not a big issue, why bother? IMHO, take some time to get to know the gun and it's idiosyncrasies first. There is a lot more goes into creating a competitive Cap'n'ball race gun than just replacing the factory nipples. There are also a lot of other places to get advice about your new gun. PM me if you would like some places. By the way......Welcome to the Dark Side!
 
I just went on their site and need a couple hours to go through what they have! Thanks!

Trust me, now that you found that website it'll be WAY more than a couple of hours..... :d

I'm with Edenchef on his suggestion to try it before you panic and start switching things out. The nipples on the gun are not top drawer stuff but they most certainly will work if you have the right size caps.

The worst thing is if the caps are too small because then you'll need a VERY FIRM push with a stick to form the caps over the tapered nipple to seat correctly. Ideally the cap skirt is sized so it just pinches onto the tapered nipple at the same time that the primer compound comes up against the anvil edge of the end of the nipple. Now if your caps are a touch too large and tend to fall off then you CAN fix that by pinching the caps to an oval shape so they at least grab the side of the nipples and stay in place. It's not perfect and it's hard on the finger tips over a longer session but at least you will get reliable ignition more than with caps which are too small.
 
Copied from your reply on the other thread just to bring this all to one spot;

Thanks,X good info, I spent a couple hours last night looking at yet videos, got some good info,cheek like its .454 but I will confirm that, got any names for good flasks/ spouts? I understand there are stainless nipples available that are better quality and are easier to remove etc? Thanks again.

EDITED TO ADD- OK, so I hit "submit" and found out that I've typed a book's worth of stuff below. Sorry 'bout that..... I hope you find it useful even if it takes a few re-reads and some time with your new gun in hand to examine. Some of it is pretty advanced but important enough that I wanted to get it out there for you. If you shoot this new C&B often enough you WILL want to deal with all the shortcomings sooner instead of later so the gun doesn't beat itself to death or suffer from inconsistent performance you can't explain.

I've not yet bought a flask. They've all come with the used C&B guns I've bought and only one of them has an actual name on it. The one with the name is by CVA and it's a simple round tube with threaded on ends. I really like it because the threaded ends make it super easy to fill up. The other two are replicas of the old stuff with silly small brass set screws that hold the caps on to stamped brass and copper flasks. I marked them to ensure the cap goes on the same way every time but that still doesn't make dealing with teeny tiny set screws any better. But other than this small annoying issue the flask valves all work just fine. I doubt there's any one which is better than another. So buy whatever you can find and it'll be just ducky.

The brass spouts tend to darken up a little from the powder and handling with my hands but that doesn't make them any less effective. And when they get too crusty I just clean them up. I made a steel spout recently on my lathe because I needed a certain size for the next day. It's been OK but it was only used for the one day so I don't know if it'll go rusty or not in regular use.

For ball lube my own shooting results in the ball sitting deep in the chamber. I generally use mine for cowboy action Frontiersman category fun and there's not a lot of time for loading up. So I keep it fast and simple. There was a You Tube video of a guy using a drop of cooking oi on the joint between chamber and ball and it wicks around to seal in the ball and provide the lubrication. I ended up using Canola oil (rape seed oil) and found that it's a superb C&B revolver lube for both sealing off the ball as well as adding a single drop to the cylinder base pin or arbor when loading to keep the cylinder spinning freely all day long. And a drop of oil over the ball in this way is WAY cleaner and neater than thumbing in gobs of bore butter or some other thick grease. And way cheaper than the Wonder Wads. This simple drop of oil on all the balls and on the arbor/base pin joint has been my standard for 7 years of C&B shooting and it's been simple, quick and works slick as snot on a doorknob. My barrels are fouled but only with powder residue at the end of even a long day of shooting. I don't recall ever having to clean out any leading from the lands. And all that from just a drop of Canola oil in each chamber.

I was worried about possible acids or something in the oil that might bother the guns. Research came up with rape seed oil being the lubricant of choice in the steam valves of the early steam engines used on ships. Apparently it didn't wash away as easily from the very hot steam like petroleum oils. And when I did my own corrosion testing to compare it to a few other gun and common oils it was one of the top performers for resisting corrosion. BUT..... when exposed to sun and air it does tend to go sticky then finally polymerize to a varnish like film. In the cool and dark it's fine for up to a month but that's it. No longer. So I'll use it as a day lube and during two day matches. But when I get home and clean the guns and don't know when they'll be used again I lube them with Ballistol.

Speaking of which there's lots of stories of regular oils or gun oils turning to a tar like goop when mixed with BP fouling. So be careful. Ballistol is one of the top rated oils for use in BP guns for this reason. Another that seems OK from my own testing is Fluid Film. But that's only limited testing on my own part.

Being new to this I should also include the standard warning to be sure you never have any air gap in your loading. Always be sure the ball or conical bullet is seated firmly with a little "crunch" onto the powder charge. Loose powder and air gaps produces a very rapid and very high pressure spike compared to compressed powder. If you do this to some extreme you could end up with your cylinder turning into a pipe bomb. NO AIR GAP ! ! ! !

Part of accuracy C&B shooting often talks about getting the ball up near the mouth of the chamber for a minimal jump to the forcing cone. The way to do this is with a filler behind the ball so there is still no air gap. Common fillers are Cream of Wheat and Oat Bran cereals. The fine "no name" versions, not the coarse granule "caked" stuff. The filler is loaded in after the powder so it doesn't mix. The bullet or ball seated down solidly with some pressure to make it all compress with that little "crunch" ensures they don't mix.

There is one other area of concern that you will want/need to deal with if you find you really take to this new style of shooting. Both Pietta and Uberti in many/most cases failed on their Colt clones to get the right fit of the arbor into the barrel. In the proper design the wedge is supposed to force the arbor ahead and lock it against the forward end of the arbor hole in the barrel. But in almost all cases this hole is too deep or the arbor too short and the wedge never really does lock tightly against anything. As a result as they come out of the box the wedge is more of a cylinder gap adjuster than it is a proper locking device.

The SIMPLE fix for this is to drop a small bearing ball or a small washer down into the hole and to pick the size such that the nose of the arbor gets wedged against this packing just as the cylinder gap is locked into the right size. This requires a lot of experimenting or fitting to size this packing just right.

The next more complicated solution is to fit the nose of the arbor with a set screw or a nose button fitted to the right size and soft soldered in place. The set screw has the advantage of being adjustable although it should be thread locked in place to prevent it moving. The nose button idea has the virtue of being totally trouble free once set.

Here's a picture of such a button held in place and ready to be soft soldered. Note that the little "C" clamp was custom made from a piece of 1/4 x 1" flat bar and uses an 8-32 screw for the clamping screw. The other end is filed down to fit into the wedge notch. The button was turned to match the diameter of the arbor so the small section of angle stock works for centering up the button.

P1020235.jpg


To be clear I'm not a licensed and insured gunsmith so I'm not offering this as a service but it does show you what is needed and if you or someone you know is at all handy with metal work even with hand tools you could do something much the same. If you're a self admitted klutz when it comes to metal working then it's something a local cowboy action smith or black powder smith could do.

I've been told that some of the arbors are hardened and tougher than others. So while drilling and tapping for a set screw isn't a bad option if your arbor is quite hard it might be tough on the drill bits and taps. And if you try the drill and tap idea don't drill through into the wedge hole. It's that forward face that the wedge bears on and you don't want a big hole in that face.

What the packing does is make it much easier to strip and assemble the gun CONSISTENTLY. It also ensures consistent accuracy since one sight is on the barrel and the other on the hammer. So one way or the other it IS worth adding some sort of arbor packing. So it's well worth doing if you like this style of shooting and want to get the most out of the gun for performance.
 
That is awesome info, did you use washes or bearings to find the tight thickness of the button or just keep turning it down till you got the right fit? I can solder no problem and work metal enough etc. What nipples do you use? One of the videos I watched by an editor of a blackpowder mag , said there are better nipples than the ones that came with it. He also filled in a grove in the hammer below the firing pin, he said it helps stop the hammer from pulling off the caps and dropping them in the mechanism! Filing the sight grove is a great idea and even with better sights, a barn door would be about the right target for my eyes ! Thankyou so much!
 
Bob. I have a couple articles written by Larson Pettifogger, all about tuning up the Pietta Cap'n'Ball revolvers for competition. Send me a PM, with your email address and I would be happy to forward you copies. Cheers.
 
I've got the Pettifogger article too and it's well worth the paper to print out and read over a few times. Wondrous information for any of the generations of old Colts including the 1873. Some of the measurements might vary from gun to gun but his general practices on timing and tuning all of the Colt single action models.

All of those "tricks" with the pins and filling in the groove all help. Likely the pin helps most of all but a lot of shooters swear by filling in the notch in the face of the hammer too. I'm a touch embarrased to admit that I've not tried either yet. Too many other projects.

OK, here's another picture.

P1020233.jpg


That split tube in the upper right is the jig I made up for holding the button in the lathe chuck so I could skim the thickness of the button until it was correct. It was turned from solid with a deep hole almost all the way through so the solid end acts as a pivot for the slit and only the front closes up. I should have machined a little relief for the rear half but in practice it didn't seem to be needed. It was one of those 2 minute projects of course. I'll tune it later for next time.

A set of feeler gauges gives you the ability to measure and know how much to take off. When doing this job I'd push the button against the cutter after each trial with a wire through the jaws so it contacted the cutter. The compound was set to axial so it was used to measure off the metal for removal. The last thou or two I took off by simply rubbing the flat side on a file with my thumb. the face for soldering was then given some shallow gooving so the solder was encouraged to flow more readily. Same with the nose of the arbor. A Dremel with a cutoff wheel was used for making these.

A good flux that you know works well with steel is required. Don't rely on the resin flux core of any electronics solder or the useless white paste sold in plumbing sections these days. If you can't find any of the old Kester paste flux that looks like honey coloured grease then see if you can find some Gryphon brand S-39 "Universal" flux. I swear it's good enough that I could solder cornflakes to Kleenex with that stuff ! ! ! ! !

I recently got some Slix Shot nipples for my Uberti Remington New Model Armies. But I was shooting just fine with the old stock nipples. Mind you there is no doubt that the after market nipples fit the caps a lot better. The stock nipples tend to have too much taper on them. Since you're metal savvy you COULD rig up some way of slightly reducing the taper by filing or maching off a skiff of metal lower on the nipple's side.

I don't have any Pietta C&B revolvers so I can't suggest a nipple size for you. But I'm sure someone will be along that has a Pietta and can suggest the size.

Here's a picture of one of the new front sights before shaping soldered on and another ready to be soldered on.

P1020109.jpg


Before I started shaping the one you see soldered I cleaned up the excess solder with some old Dri Wick and a bit more heat. The sight was filed out with a medium fine cut round file so it formed curved sides. the top was then trimmed at the range only after a good couple of cylinders as I crept down on the final stroke or two.

This next picture shows what the rear sight looked like once done from the shooter's eye. Well, maybe not QUITE as the shooter sees it. Looking at this picture again the notch looks wider because the camera is between me and the sights.

P1020115.jpg


I started off more narrow than you see and opened it up again at the range with another needle file that had the teeth removed from both edges and one face so I would only cut on the one side. The notch being opened carefully to maintain proper windage of my shots.

Aiming and shooting the three open top Colt replicas I've done in this way has been so much nicer than the old sights setup.
 
I've got the Pettifogger article too and it's well worth the paper to print out and read over a few times. Wondrous information for any of the generations of old Colts including the 1873. Some of the measurements might vary from gun to gun but his general practices on timing and tuning all of the Colt single action models.

All of those "tricks" with the pins and filling in the groove all help. Likely the pin helps most of all but a lot of shooters swear by filling in the notch in the face of the hammer too. I'm a touch embarrased to admit that I've not tried either yet. Too many other projects.

OK, here's another picture.

P1020233.jpg


That split tube in the upper right is the jig I made up for holding the button in the lathe chuck so I could skim the thickness of the button until it was correct. It was turned from solid with a deep hole almost all the way through so the solid end acts as a pivot for the slit and only the front closes up. I should have machined a little relief for the rear half but in practice it didn't seem to be needed. It was one of those 2 minute projects of course. I'll tune it later for next time.

A set of feeler gauges gives you the ability to measure and know how much to take off. When doing this job I'd push the button against the cutter after each trial with a wire through the jaws so it contacted the cutter. The compound was set to axial so it was used to measure off the metal for removal. The last thou or two I took off by simply rubbing the flat side on a file with my thumb. the face for soldering was then given some shallow gooving so the solder was encouraged to flow more readily. Same with the nose of the arbor. A Dremel with a cutoff wheel was used for making these.

A good flux that you know works well with steel is required. Don't rely on the resin flux core of any electronics solder or the useless white paste sold in plumbing sections these days. If you can't find any of the old Kester paste flux that looks like honey coloured grease then see if you can find some Gryphon brand S-39 "Universal" flux. I swear it's good enough that I could solder cornflakes to Kleenex with that stuff ! ! ! ! !

I recently got some Slix Shot nipples for my Uberti Remington New Model Armies. But I was shooting just fine with the old stock nipples. Mind you there is no doubt that the after market nipples fit the caps a lot better. The stock nipples tend to have too much taper on them. Since you're metal savvy you COULD rig up some way of slightly reducing the taper by filing or maching off a skiff of metal lower on the nipple's side.

I don't have any Pietta C&B revolvers so I can't suggest a nipple size for you. But I'm sure someone will be along that has a Pietta and can suggest the size.

Here's a picture of one of the new front sights before shaping soldered on and another ready to be soldered on.

P1020109.jpg


Before I started shaping the one you see soldered I cleaned up the excess solder with some old Dri Wick and a bit more heat. The sight was filed out with a medium fine cut round file so it formed curved sides. the top was then trimmed at the range only after a good couple of cylinders as I crept down on the final stroke or two.

This next picture shows what the rear sight looked like once done from the shooter's eye. Well, maybe not QUITE as the shooter sees it. Looking at this picture again the notch looks wider because the camera is between me and the sights.

P1020115.jpg


I started off more narrow than you see and opened it up again at the range with another needle file that had the teeth removed from both edges and one face so I would only cut on the one side. The notch being opened carefully to maintain proper windage of my shots.

Aiming and shooting the three open top Colt replicas I've done in this way has been so much nicer than the old sights setup.
Very nice, I don't have a lath but can access one, all else I can do with time, no problem with solder paste, myself, my brother and Father were plumbers at one time so lots of different gear around! Well lots of stuff to get started on and read about! Thanks! I have wanted an 1858 for a while but the 1851 came up for a good price, if I get into this at all the 1858 will be next! I almost got an original a couple times but didn't quite win the bids!
 
Bobdbldr,

I believe there are some fellow black powder shooters near Pictou who shoot their cap n balls quite accurately in MLAIC matches (bullseye matches with cap n balls)

If you're interested in knowing more please let me know and as another poster said " welcome to the dark side"

Brian
 
Bobdbldr,

I believe there are some fellow black powder shooters near Pictou who shoot their cap n balls quite accurately in MLAIC matches (bullseye matches with cap n balls)

If you're interested in knowing more please let me know and as another poster said " welcome to the dark side"

Brian
Thankyou Brian, I may take you up on that once I get my feet wet, but my aim isn't what it used to be and it never used to be all that good.;) I was talking to a member on my range last week at MVRRC who was into BP and said he shot in some matches in the past! Can't recall his name, I will have to look him up too! Cheers Bob,,, edit, just noticed your post count, great caliber!
 
Bob, my main use for my BP revolvers as mentioned is for cowboy action. And a huge part of the fun is dodging the smoke. Many is the time I've had to duck under the smoke to see the targets well enough for a return or repeated pass at them. This gets the "peanut gallery" hollerin' and hootin' something fierce with amusement. But that's OK. For me this is a big part of the fun.

One case in particular was amusing. We had three clay bird tossers with target paddles to trigger them on one stage. But one had the paddle up off the left corner with the other two off the right corners. I shot one, got the birdy, reloaded and peered squinty eyed into the haze to see a vague shadow of the tosser so I aimed over the right corner and took the shot and then shifted the SxS up into the clear area waiting for the birdy. Didn't show.... I looked down into the clearing smoke to see the trigger paddle UP FROM THE LEFT CORNER and sitting there wondering why I'd missed..... Grrrrr :d Happy ending though. Got all three birdys and a clean stage.

If there's a cowboy group in your area you may want to check them out. It may urge you to get your gun a playmate along with a lever and a side by side and join the fun.

This was all just from my two handguns. Then the shotgun to come yet.

Oh yeah... I just love the smell of sulphur in the mornin'..... :d

073-X2.jpg
 
Well, I found a place local to get most of my supplies and will have time next week to get them and shoot the 1851, I also have an Marlin lever in 38/55, blackpowder only! Haven't shot it yet, I got brass for it( hope it's the right length) I will be ordering some lead projectiles from Jethunter, for it and other antique handguns I have, .44 Russian, .350 Adams, .442. .476, so I will be ordering a good few! Not sure what shotty I would need, I just got a lever 12 guage from Corwin arms and have a sxs 12 guage shorty from Canam, other than that all my shotguns are newer style pumps and single shot!
 
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