Any updates on Troy Sporting Rifle (PAR)

What REALLY confuses me, is that the gun has a rotating bolt head, so why did they even need a fluted chamber?

The ONLY purpose of a fluted chamber is for the propellant gasses to prevent the brass case from forming a seal in the chamber, and it's solely for firearms that don't have a rotating bolt head (Think of the HK roller locked guns, pulls strait out)...

This seems to be a feature that isn't needed, and in some cases is certainly hurting their performance. Fluting a chamber is a very precise and careful process (usually EDM sink-cutting) that's easy to mess up, and unlike a simple chamber burr, it can be impossible to 'fix' a damaged fluted chamber....

And with that said, for a rotating bolt head to actually HAVE a fluted chamber, could absolutely cause the case to get stuck and prevent the bolt head from unlocking. (the spent case would be like a gear, the teeth getting stuck)... It's no wonder why they recommend harder cased ammo for it, if the brass expands fully into the flutes, it would lock it in place... Seriously WTF is going on at Troy??? The more I think about it, the more I think this has got to be one of the stupidest features a gun maker has ever incorporated!
 
F22_RaptoR said:
What REALLY confuses me, is that the gun has a rotating bolt head, so why did they even need a fluted chamber?

The ONLY purpose of a fluted chamber is for the propellant gasses to prevent the brass case from forming a seal in the chamber, and it's solely for firearms that don't have a rotating bolt head (Think of the HK roller locked guns, pulls strait out)...

This seems to be a feature that isn't needed, and in some cases is certainly hurting their performance. Fluting a chamber is a very precise and careful process (usually EDM sink-cutting) that's easy to mess up, and unlike a simple chamber burr, it can be impossible to 'fix' a damaged fluted chamber....

And with that said, for a rotating bolt head to actually HAVE a fluted chamber, could absolutely cause the case to get stuck and prevent the bolt head from unlocking. (the spent case would be like a gear, the teeth getting stuck)... It's no wonder why they recommend harder cased ammo for it, if the brass expands fully into the flutes, it would lock it in place... Seriously WTF is going on at Troy??? The more I think about it, the more I think this has got to be one of the stupidest features a gun maker has ever incorporated!
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Wow thinking about it, that is a major problem... guess we will have to change the barrel.

I wonder why they would not have changed that since it was released? Very peculiar.
 
driller212 said:
Wow thinking about it, that is a major problem... guess we will have to change the barrel.

I wonder why they would not have changed that since it was released? Very peculiar.
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Probably some 'engineer' that thought that rifle needed better extraction as it doesn't have the gas system, but realistically manual action firearms have MORE time for the chamber to lose pressure than a semi-auto would, so extractions should be LESS of an issue....

I honestly thought it was a strait-pull style bolt (which chamber flutes make some sense) until fenceline posted the pics with it having a rotating bolt head on it.... then it make me go WTF?!


I can see this becoming a very serious problem... Some may disagree, but the fluting is completely unnecessary in this kind of rifle. I think Troy needs to reassess some things very quickly here.

Even guys having good luck with their rifles, all it will take is the case to expand juuust enough for the fluting to rub, and the extractor claw then has to grind its way around the case rim until it unlocks. Way more friction there than a 'stick case' in a normal chamber. Not to mention puts a lot of stress on the action bar up top, and the pump assembly.
 
The explanation given about the flutes reducing pressure to avoid overpressure situation because there is no gas port is total BS. How does a bolt action 223 not explode if that were the case? It makes no sense at all.
This sounds like another case of some engineer trying to fix a problem that was never there in the first place in order to justify not being laid off.

I think Troy should make new barrels for every rifle they've sold so far and offer them to every owner for free including paying the labor to swap them out. A fluted chamber serves absolutely no practical purpose in a rifle like this.

I hope they get this sorted out, I would like to give one of these rifles a try but I'm not risking my money on one until they go to a regular chamber. Even if it was reliable it still deforms the brass which would reduce case life for reloading.
 
I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize if I say or ask something that has been previously posted.

I've had my PAR for a little over a week now and if it weren't for the accuracy issue I'm having, I'd absolutely love it. I've had it out to the range about a half dozen times so far trying to figure out what's going on but to no avail. Many other reviews are claiming accuracy of about 1.5 MOA with some groups coming in sub-MOA. This was one of the reasons I bought the rifle since only accurate rifles are interesting.

I've been getting about 5 MOA with some groups being better but most being worse. I regularly shoot sub-MOA groups with my bolt action rifles and I'm using the scope off of one of these so we can rule out the shooter and the scope. The mount is tight and the barrel crown looks good to me. There's a little play between the upper and lower but not 5 MOA worth in my opinion. I've tried everything from 55gr V-Max on top of a 24gr load of Varget (which has yielded 0.5 MOA groups for me in the past) all the way up to Hornady Match 5.56 75gr ammo. The best groups I've gotten are just over 2 MOA and those weren't repeatable so I'm pretty sure they were just flukes. I'm at a loss and quite frankly very disappointed.

On the plus side I haven't had any issues cycling despite the fluted chamber....
 
mmatt said:
I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize if I say or ask something that has been previously posted.

I've had my PAR for a little over a week now and if it weren't for the accuracy issue I'm having, I'd absolutely love it. I've had it out to the range about a half dozen times so far trying to figure out what's going on but to no avail. Many other reviews are claiming accuracy of about 1.5 MOA with some groups coming in sub-MOA. This was one of the reasons I bought the rifle since only accurate rifles are interesting.

I've been getting about 5 MOA with some groups being better but most being worse. I regularly shoot sub-MOA groups with my bolt action rifles and I'm using the scope off of one of these so we can rule out the shooter and the scope. The mount is tight and the barrel crown looks good to me. There's a little play between the upper and lower but not 5 MOA worth in my opinion. I've tried everything from 55gr V-Max on top of a 24gr load of Varget (which has yielded 0.5 MOA groups for me in the past) all the way up to Hornady Match 5.56 75gr ammo. The best groups I've gotten are just over 2 MOA and those weren't repeatable so I'm pretty sure they were just flukes. I'm at a loss and quite frankly very disappointed.

On the plus side I haven't had any issues cycling despite the fluted chamber....
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Strange, the reviews I've seen say it's pretty accurate. Have you checked to see if your barrel nut is nice and tight?

Does the fluted chamber leave your brass with ridges like in the pics posted earlier? As a reloader do you feel like this would work the brass more than normal reducing brass life? The pics earlier made it look like the ridges were quite noticeable and pushing them through the sizing die would be doing a lot more work than normal. It may not be as bad as the pics made it look but I'd like to hear the opinion of a fellow reloader.
 
I sized a piece of brass that I shot out of mmatts rifle on the weekend. I didn't notice any extra sizing effort. The ridges stay in place though so technically the case is being sized smaller overall (a few thousands) than a normal case as the flute ridges are proud and riding against the die wall.

This should in theory slightly reduce case volume and result in cases that are a bit small for the chamber I believe. If that is the case, accuracy should be negatively impacted.
 
The barrel nut seems to be very tight. I don't have the tools needed to check it for sure but it didn't move under the significant pressure I applied to it.

Would the fact that the upper moves independently of the lower affect accuracy? The only interface between the 2 is the hammer striking the firing pin. I do notice the reticle moving a fair bit when I dryfire which is something I do not see when I dryfire with my other rifles. Would that be enough to throw off the shot? I'll wedge some cardboard or something between the 2 to eliminate the play and see if that helps at all.
 
cr5 said:
The explanation given about the flutes reducing pressure to avoid overpressure situation because there is no gas port is total BS. How does a bolt action 223 not explode if that were the case? It makes no sense at all.
This sounds like another case of some engineer trying to fix a problem that was never there in the first place in order to justify not being laid off.

I think Troy should make new barrels for every rifle they've sold so far and offer them to every owner for free including paying the labor to swap them out. A fluted chamber serves absolutely no practical purpose in a rifle like this.

I hope they get this sorted out, I would like to give one of these rifles a try but I'm not risking my money on one until they go to a regular chamber. Even if it was reliable it still deforms the brass which would reduce case life for reloading.
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Since everyone has been making statements based on little fact so far & some conjecture on the PAR design, let me offer the following response from Steve Troy the CEO & owner of Troy Industries / with whom I communicated several minutes ago.

"The fluting is used to keep the case from sticking to the chamber wall making a manual extraction difficult. This is never noticed on a semi auto as the gas expanding in the carrier does all the unlocking and pulling. With the pump we had to override the out of tolerance wolf ammo that was coming in the country that caused a issue in semi guns as well as our pump. There is nothing wrong with flutes done properly in a stoner bolt system, other companies have incorporated them on their semis and full autos as well. I'll leave you google Jedi's to figure out who."

For the time being that should answer some questions & no doubt kick off other-ones...


gadget
 
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gadget said:
Since everyone has been making statements based on little fact so far & some conjecture on the PAR design, let me offer the following response from Steve Troy the CEO & owner of Troy Industries / with whom I communicated several minutes ago.

"The fluting is used to keep the case from sticking to the chamber wall making a manual extraction difficult. This is never noticed on a semi auto as the gas expanding in the carrier does all the unlocking and pulling. With the pump we had to override the out of tolerance wolf ammo that was coming in the country that caused a issue in semi guns as well as our pump. There is nothing wrong with flutes done properly in a stoner bolt system, other companies have incorporated them on their semis and full autos as well. I'll leave you google Jedi's to figure out who."

For the time being that should answer some questions & no doubt kick off other-ones...


gadget
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Something has to be wrong with mine then. It will only extract PMC bronze maybe 80% of the time, won't extract any IWI or PMC 5.56 and won't extract winchester 62gn white box or Federal American eagle red box. I have to extract so hard its starting to dent the end of the hand guard. I also can't fit any QD mounts in the QD holes, I tried 3 brands and none fit. Do you think Troy would do a RMA and fix the problems? Mine was purchased from IRG but they didn't seem to want to do anything about it.
 
ryushi said:
Something has to be wrong with mine then. It will only extract PMC bronze maybe 80% of the time, won't extract any IWI or PMC 5.56 and won't extract winchester 62gn white box or Federal American eagle red box. I have to extract so hard its starting to dent the end of the hand guard. I also can't fit any QD mounts in the QD holes, I tried 3 brands and none fit. Do you think Troy would do a RMA and fix the problems? Mine was purchased from IRG but they didn't seem to want to do anything about it.
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All I can suggest is that you contact Rampart & ask to speak to Kyle for assistance in this matter, I will make inquiries through the CEO at Troy & see if they can send a spare upper in their shipment, which will again depend on Ramparts paperwork that they have filed.

gadget
 
gadget said:
All I can suggest is that you contact Rampart & ask to speak to Kyle for assistance in this matter, I will make inquiries through the CEO at Troy & see if they can send a spare upper in their shipment, which will again depend on Ramparts paperwork that they have filed.

gadget
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Would Rampart help me out even if I bought the rifle from a different dealer?
 
Didn't IRG swap barrels on the ones they brought in?

You need one of these to make a QD work.
h ttp://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/product/qd-micro-mount/
 
Innercity said:
Didn't IRG swap barrels on the ones they brought in?

You need one of these to make a QD work.
h ttp://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/product/qd-micro-mount/
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IRG was going to swap barrels but the RCMP OKed the factory barrel. That type of mount would work for the hand guard but not the Qd mounts machined in the lower, which are the ones that are out of spec.
 
I think they mentioned in their forum that they only warranty guns bought through a Canadian authorized distributor (i.e. them). Your rifle should be covered by US warranty via Irunguns. It really poor customer service if they refuse to help you out. I've made a few purchases from them and I was told they would do any warranty work through the US.

ryushi said:
Would Rampart help me out even if I bought the rifle from a different dealer?
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