Cheap double guns

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loogin28

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OK, had a Stoeger Uplander Supreme, shot it one year. Gave to my son, went to a clay shoot with him. He brought said Stoeger. The gun is so loose now, I'm kinda disappointed. Total round count, maybe 1200. Turned my off of that brand. My question is, how does a shooter get into the double gun realm with some quality without breaking the bank. Totally understand, get what you pay for. Why make something that fails so fast? Used is good, however pictures, description, still don't guarantee quality
 
I hear yildiz makes good sxs for around $2000. Mossberg used to make a silver reserve 2 sxs for about half that - wouldn't want to guess the quality though. Is it a sxs you have your heart set on? They seem a little more expensive than o/u.
 
loogin28 said:
OK, had a Stoeger Uplander Supreme, shot it one year. Gave to my son, went to a clay shoot with him. He brought said Stoeger. The gun is so loose now, I'm kinda disappointed. Total round count, maybe 1200. Turned my off of that brand. My question is, how does a shooter get into the double gun realm with some quality without breaking the bank. Totally understand, get what you pay for. Why make something that fails so fast? Used is good, however pictures, description, still don't guarantee quality
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It is my belief that you can't really blame the gun in a case like this as this comes back to the "match the gun for the intended use" and should be an indicator/answer to the many threads posted by people who are looking for low end over/unders or SxS'S for clays shooting. These guns are not and were not designed for that kind of use. 1200 shells in around a year is more shells that what most hunters will shoot in many years of hunting which is what these guns were really designed for. But even then, it does come down to what has been said many times regarding any object--you get what you pay for. There are no doubt cost cutting measures built into a budget/low end gun.
 
loogin28 said:
My question is, how does a shooter get into the double gun realm with some quality without breaking the bank.
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The short answer is you don't. If there were a magical double gun out there that was under $500 that shot as well, lasted as long and looked as good as a gun costing 5 or 10 times as much we'd all own one and every other shotgun maker would be out of business.

If you want "some quality" be prepared to pay for it. If you aren't then accept that the gun you buy may not last as long or shoot as well. A shooter would be much better off with a quality pump or semi instead of a cheap double.
 
Yes a SxS is what I'm after. I'm guessing there are no new guns worthy of double duty. Hunting/clay busting. I also have been looking at Akkar Churchill. Undecided yet. I know if I spend the extra on say a Citori or Beretta, I'd hope it would last.
 
If you want two barrels, it's a lot easier tom find a good used O/U for a reasonable price. A Browning or Beretta will typically last over 100,000 rounds with proper maintenance.
 
loogin28 said:
OK, had a Stoeger Uplander Supreme, shot it one year. Gave to my son, went to a clay shoot with him. He brought said Stoeger. The gun is so loose now, I'm kinda disappointed. Total round count, maybe 1200. Turned my off of that brand. My question is, how does a shooter get into the double gun realm with some quality without breaking the bank. Totally understand, get what you pay for. Why make something that fails so fast? Used is good, however pictures, description, still don't guarantee quality
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I'm sorry you had to find out the hard way about inexpensive double guns vs durability and longevity. As stated you took a gun designed as a hunting tool which probably would average 50 rds/year hunting and put 25 years worth of shooting through the gun in one year. There are so many threads on this site about wanting to buy double guns without spending what the buyer considers big $ with always the same advice offered but ignored then a failure like this only serves to prove what the more experienced owners have said all along. Save a little longer if $$ is tight and get a gun of better quality. A used quality gun will serve you well for a lifetime over a new gun of poor quality.
This thread also shows to serve that maybe just maybe the people trying to offer good buying advice are not "gun snobs" or "elitists" as some so eloquently put it!!
Find yourself a good used quality gun if that is in your affordability bracket and as said match it to it's intended use.
 
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Yes, that's my route for sure. I'm learning, and yes I like the advice. Just to let all know, buy quality! I'm looking, taking advice, and weighing my choices. I could afford the gun, it's trying to explain to the Mama. I HAVE to buy quality, hehe
 
I, actually might have an opportunity to look at one. I have Baikal over under, not refined, but seems durable. They are not light weight either, but affordable. Only problem is I've had a chance to hold a Citori, never shot one, but would like to try
 
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loogin28 said:
Yes a SxS is what I'm after. I'm guessing there are no new guns worthy of double duty. Hunting/clay busting. I also have been looking at Akkar Churchill. Undecided yet. I know if I spend the extra on say a Citori or Beretta, I'd hope it would last.
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Okay, do you want a O/U or a SxS. Important to distinguish which. Aside from the differences in actually shooting the gun, availability of reasonable quality for reasonable price is very different.

If you will be happy with an O/U, wrap your mind around $1500 to $1800 and start looking for a B gun as others have recommended. If most of your shooting will be on the range, that is what I would recommend.

If you are determined to shoot a SxS, then finding one that will stand up to the heavy use that comes with regular attendance at the range will be a bit more expensive. Quite a bit. On the other hand, good quality SxS designed as game guns and in good condition can be found for the same money (or thereabout) as the B guns above. You just need to spend more time educating yourself about what is a good one so you know it when you see it. It's not as simple as saying "I'll just get X brand"

If I was determined to get a good quality new SxS I would be investigating if Dickenson is or plans to sell into Canada or seeing what's required to buy one down there and get it up here. Not simple but not impossible.
 
I'm probably going to get jumped on here for this but here are my thoughts on SxS's. First off I LOVE the looks of a quality SxS. There is nothing more pleasing to the eye than the workmanship put into these guns. Now with that being said I truly believe all SXS's with the exception of custom ordered or larger framed and stocked heavier versions are made for one intended function. Upland hunting!! I am of the opinion by the very nature of their design they were not intended as target guns. They are made to carry afield and bust flushing upland birds. If they are intended for use with high volumes of shooting such as in a driven bird hunt or trap and skeet shooting they are of a much better quality. They have to be just by the design of their receivers and barrel locking systems. There is a reason for some of the extra strength locking designs, the forces applied upon firing a shot. Most are not aware that when a shell is fired the barrels pull forward as the receiver pushes rearward with the shot. That causes alot of stress on the hinge pin. In an o/u most manufacturers designs rely on the hinge pin to take up the full weight of the shot stresses. Browning and Beretta are examples of that. On a Perazzi however which by the way uses the Boss system the stresses are absorbed by the way the sides of the monobloc fit into the receiver like pieces of a puzzle or a kids shapes game, putting the square block in the square hole for example. This leaves the hinge pins for nothing more than rotation purposes for opening and closing the gun which is why Boss style guns are so strong and pins rarely need changing even after as many as hundreds of thousands of rounds. Comparing a SxS with an over under you do not have a cross section that large to take up that much stress. The barrels sit on a flat surface known as the water table and either lick in via a lug and bite system in the water table or by way of a rib or barrel extension that aligns with a slot in the breech face with a pin or lug of some sort passing through the extension. On lower end guns the tolerances and quality of materials used just isn't conducive to the SXS designs imposed firing stresses to withstand high volumes of shooting. If you look at American made SXS's you'll see the thought process for guns made to take the stresses of big heavy waterfowl loads or higher volumes of shooting were generally made on big beefy platforms which drastically takes away the SxS's light handling characteristics. SxS's and single shots were at one time all that was available to trap shooters. With the invention of the slide action(pump) the SxS fell by the wayside quickly as a trap gun as the slide action was much more favoured due to its better pointing characteristics for American style trap. As I said earlier I truly love the look of a quality SxS but having tried them on the trap field I can state my preference goes to the o/u.
 
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the spank said:
I'm probably going to get jumped on here for this but here are my thoughts on SxS's. First off I LOVE the looks of a quality SxS. There is nothing more pleasing to the eye than the workmanship put into these guns. Now with that being said I truly believe all SXS's with the exception of custom ordered or larger framed and stocked heavier versions are made for one intended function. Upland hunting!! I am of the opinion by the very nature of their design they were not intended as target guns. They are made to carry afield and bust flushing upland birds. If they are intended for use with high volumes of shooting such as in a driven bird hunt or trap and skeet shooting they are of a much better quality. They have to be just by the design of their receivers and barrel locking systems. There is a reason for some of the extra strength locking designs, the forces applied upon firing a shot. Most are not aware that when a shell is fired the barrels pull forward as the receiver pushes rearward with the shot. That causes alot of stress on the hinge pin. In an o/u most manufacturers designs rely on the hinge pin to take up the full weight of the shot stresses. Browning and Beretta are examples of that. On a Perazzi however which by the way uses the Boss system the stresses are absorbed by the way the sides of the monobloc fit into the receiver like pieces of a puzzle or a kids shapes game, putting the square block in the square hole for example. This leaves the hinge pins for nothing more than rotation purposes for opening and closing the gun which is why Boss style guns are so strong and pins rarely need changing even after as many as hundreds of thousands of rounds. Comparing a SxS with an over under you do not have a cross section that large to take up that much stress. The barrels sit on a flat surface known as the water table and either lock in via a boxlock or sidelock design primarily. On lower end guns the tolerances and quality of materials used just isn't conducive to the SXS designs imposed firing stresses to withstand high volumes of shooting. If you look at American made SXS's you'll see the thought process for guns made to take the stresses of big heavy waterfowl loads or higher volumes of shooting were generally made on big beefy platforms which drastically takes away the SxS's light handling characteristics. SxS's and single shots were at one time all that was available to trap shooters. With the invention of the slide action(pump) the SxS fell by the wayside quickly as a trap gun as the slide action was much more favoured due to its better pointing characteristics for American style trap. As I said earlier I truly love the look of a quality SxS but having tried them on the trap field I can state my preference goes to the o/u.
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That sums is up very well.


Red Flyer said:
I started shooting clays with a new Beretta A300. Realized that I really like the sport, so I recently bought an excellent used Beretta 686 E Sporting on EE.
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If that is the 686E that surfaced on EE over a week ago - judging by the images, appeared to be a very nice shotgun for a very fair price.
 
the spank said:
I'm probably going to get jumped on here for this but here are my thoughts on SxS's. First off I LOVE the looks of a quality SxS. There is nothing more pleasing to the eye than the workmanship put into these guns. Now with that being said I truly believe all SXS's with the exception of custom ordered or larger framed and stocked heavier versions are made for one intended function. Upland hunting!! I am of the opinion by the very nature of their design they were not intended as target guns. They are made to carry afield and bust flushing upland birds. If they are intended for use with high volumes of shooting such as in a driven bird hunt or trap and skeet shooting they are of a much better quality. They have to be just by the design of their receivers and barrel locking systems. There is a reason for some of the extra strength locking designs, the forces applied upon firing a shot. Most are not aware that when a shell is fired the barrels pull forward as the receiver pushes rearward with the shot. That causes alot of stress on the hinge pin. In an o/u most manufacturers designs rely on the hinge pin to take up the full weight of the shot stresses. Browning and Beretta are examples of that. On a Perazzi however which by the way uses the Boss system the stresses are absorbed by the way the sides of the monobloc fit into the receiver like pieces of a puzzle or a kids shapes game, putting the square block in the square hole for example. This leaves the hinge pins for nothing more than rotation purposes for opening and closing the gun which is why Boss style guns are so strong and pins rarely need changing even after as many as hundreds of thousands of rounds. Comparing a SxS with an over under you do not have a cross section that large to take up that much stress. The barrels sit on a flat surface known as the water table and either lock in via a boxlock or sidelock design primarily. On lower end guns the tolerances and quality of materials used just isn't conducive to the SXS designs imposed firing stresses to withstand high volumes of shooting. If you look at American made SXS's you'll see the thought process for guns made to take the stresses of big heavy waterfowl loads or higher volumes of shooting were generally made on big beefy platforms which drastically takes away the SxS's light handling characteristics. SxS's and single shots were at one time all that was available to trap shooters. With the invention of the slide action(pump) the SxS fell by the wayside quickly as a trap gun as the slide action was much more favoured due to its better pointing characteristics for American style trap. As I said earlier I truly love the look of a quality SxS but having tried them on the trap field I can state my preference goes to the o/u.
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Well stated. A SxS is fine for the occasional round skeet or sporting clays to keep sharp for upland.
 
Red Flyer said:
I started shooting clays with a new Beretta A300. Realized that I really like the sport, so I recently bought an excellent used Beretta 686 E Sporting on EE.

After selling the A300, I will have spent about $1,000 (net) on the O/U.

It will last, at least, my lifetime.
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You will be able to shoot that gun for years and with a little attention to upkeep sell it for at least what you paid if not more.

I learned my lesson about cheap guns years ago fortunately at someone else's expense. When I first got into trap shooting there was a low-priced shotgun on the market called a Frigon (made by Marocchi) that was all the rage. The price was very attractive and many guys bought them. I opted instead for a used BT99.

Then the problems set in. Frigons weren't quite the bargain their owners thought they were. 25 years later Frigons are damn rare and impossible to get parts for. Meanwhile, my BT99 was sold 20 years ago to another club member who is still using it and according to him with the occasional service or two by Browning is still running strong after two decades and probably over 200,000 rounds.
 
loogin28 said:
I, actually might have an opportunity to look at one. I have Baikal over under, not refined, but seems durable. They are not light weight either, but affordable. Only problem is I've had a chance to hold a Citori, never shot one, but would like to try
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I'm not bashing Baikals, had a couple ,and yes they are sturdy. But you would still be taking a SxS not designed for the clays sports. You will be gaining nothing.
 
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