Troubles with open top revolver

[TDizzle]

Hey guys,

Just a quick question for you folks who might have some experience with these types of revolvers. I picked up a Uberti 1871 Navy Open Top revolver a few months back and just had the chance to take it out to the range.

This guy -

http://www.uberti.com/army-conversion-navy-conversion-and-open-top-revolvers

Anyway, the revolver ran smooth as silk and the hammer pulled down easily every time. I put the gun through the cleaning process -

- Turned the flat side of the wedge screw down so I could pop out the wedge
- Took the barrel off and cleaned it out properly
- Half cocked the hammer and took off the cylinder and cleaned it up as well
- I made sure to keep the base pin clean and well lubricated, and I oiled up the back of the cylinder that latches into the mechanism that rotates it
- I put everything back together carefully and exactly as I had taken it apart

The only trouble was, I found that the hammer was VERY difficult to engage on every 6th pull. I had no clue why it was happening. I couldn't see the cylinder rubbing on any parts.

I ended up taking apart, reassembling, and re-lubricating the handgun 4 times before it worked as it had before I started the cleaning process.

Any ideas as to why the cylinder would suddenly become difficult to pull down once on each rotation? Is there a specific direction you have to put the cylinder back on? (other than backwards/forwards...I know that much haha)

Any suggestions or advice is welcome!

Thanks

 

[gnmontey]

I had one of those and it exhibited the same behavior. Would work fine, then one cylinder would refuse to align with out some extra hammer force. Never did figure out what caused it.

Having said that, I have a 1860 Army with a Taylor conversion cylinder that can be fickle depending upon how you reset the bbl wedge.

M

 

[TDizzle]

I had one of those and it exhibited the same behavior. Would work fine, then one cylinder would refuse to align with out some extra hammer force. Never did figure out what caused it.

Having said that, I have a 1860 Army with a Taylor conversion cylinder that can be fickle depending upon how you reset the bbl wedge.

M

Gotcha...I kind of thought it might be the wedge, as that is supposed to set how close the barrel meets with the cylinder (I think) so I was making sure to just barely tap it in. But then again, maybe I was still tapping the wedge in too far.

 

[gnmontey]

You shooting factory ammo or reloads? I'm finding 38spl brass to be all over the map with regard to rim thickness. I was using mixed brass reloads in my Uberti.

M

 

[tiriaq]

Back the wedge off slightly, see if that cures the problem.

 

[TDizzle]

You shooting factory ammo or reloads? I'm finding 38spl brass to be all over the map with regard to rim thickness. I was using mixed brass reloads in my Uberti.

M

I'm shooting factory Black Hills ammo, as well as some Winchester cowboy action stuff. I think the Black Hills brass should be good stuff.

 

[TDizzle]

Back the wedge off slightly, see if that cures the problem.

The cylinder currently rotates properly, but next time I take it out and give it a good cleaning, I'll give this a shot and keep the wedge just tight enough to get the wedge screw overtop.

 

[gnmontey]

I'm shooting factory Black Hills ammo, as well as some Winchester cowboy action stuff. I think the Black Hills brass should be good stuff.

Fair enough, eliminates having the odd round not seating fully.

As suggested, try fiddling with the wedge seating depth.

M

 

[tiriaq]

As you tap the wedge in, keep a close eye on the cylinder/barrel gap. You want the gap small, but not too small.
I've not used one of these open top cartridge revolvers, but my percussion revolvers do not require the wedge to be removed completely in order to detach the barrel. The wedge is tapped out until it is hanging, but kept with the barrel by the wedge screw.

 

[TDizzle]

As you tap the wedge in, keep a close eye on the cylinder/barrel gap. You want the gap small, but not too small.
I've not used one of these open top cartridge revolvers, but my percussion revolvers do not require the wedge to be removed completely in order to detach the barrel. The wedge is tapped out until it is hanging, but kept with the barrel by the wedge screw.

The wedge on this one has to be fully removed in order to take off the barrel. But yes, I'll definitely keep my eye on the spacing between the barrel and cylinder when I tap the wedge in next time.

Thanks for the tips guys!

 

[BCRider]

An interesting point about the open tops we get from Italy is that they are not done right on the arbor and wedge issue. I've not examined a Pietta but the Uberti made open tops all have too short a nose on the arbor. And from what I read of them this issue is shared by Pietta open tops as well. As a result the arbor does not bottom out correctly in the barrel and we get this issue of the wedge controlling the cylinder gap. But that's not right. The wedge should only lock the barrel in place. The overall length of the arbor and the depth of the arbor hole in the barrel is what is SUPPOSED to control the cylinder gap.

This isn't only an issue on the cartridge versions. It also plagues the cap and ball versions.

A cheap and easy fix is to play with and adjust a washer to fit into the barrel socket so that it stops the arbor at the point where you have a good cylinder gap. Or if you're like me and kept forgetting about the washer and losing it in the grass you can make up a little button that acts as this spacer and solder it to the nose of the arbor like I've done to my open top guns. Another frequently seen trick on the web is to drill and thread the arbor's nose for a round head 8-32 allen head screw and use some thread locker to hold it in the right position after you've adjusted it to get the proper cylinder gap.

Here's a couple of pictures of the button job I did for my guns. The first is the showing the back side of the button to be soft soldered to the arbor and the cross hatching to encourage good solder flow. The bit of angle aluminium is an alignment aid. The mini "C" clamp is shop made for this job. The button is "dry fitted" to obtain the proper cylinder gap prior to soldering in place. The tool with the stepped hole is used to hold the button while filing off that all important last half thou to get the gap just right. The second picture is set up for soldering.

[/IMG]

Once this is done correctly you can push or tap your wedge in to the proper degree without worry about it locking the cylinder up.

One thing from above to check. You mentioned that it only got tight on the 6th chamber. That's not good. It suggests an angled front face on the cylinder or that there's something at the rear which is wedging the cylinder ahead into the forcing cone face. You'll want to measure things up and measure for fore and aft movement of the cylinder to see if it's being pushed forward by something at the rear.

 

[tiriaq]

Thanks for a very informative post!

 

[BCRider]

I forgot to add on the idea of the easy to do loose washer shim....

The hole in the end of the barrel is conical as it was simply drilled. So you can adjust the effective length of a shim washer by filing off one of the edges at an angle which approximates the conical nose angle of a drill bit. It's very close to 30 degrees off the flat.

The easy way to do this fairly evenly if you don't have a lathe is to use a screw of the right size for the hole and lock the washer with a nut from behind. Chuck the screw into your hand drill and use it as a lathe with a fine cutting file as the cutting tool. Trim a neat angular edge and try again. Of course now you need to make it fall into the arbor with the filed edge facing forward. Or since that is about as likely as your toast hitting the floor jam side up you'll soon learn to balance the washer on the end of the arbor and slide the barrel down over it.

And DO try to remember that you have that washer in there. It's a tough thing to find in the grass....

 

[BCRider]

Thanks for a very informative post!

Open top revolvers RULE!! So if I can help some of you enjoy and shoot them better than I feel like I've done my bit.

And the only thing more fun than shooting an open top is shooting them with "proper" black powder. It's a whole other sort of feeling and I urge you all to try it. You'll need to be set up for reloading. But if you're shooting these sort of guns you'll want to do that sooner rather than later anyway since you can save a bundle compared to buying factory ammo.

The proper charge for black powder in .38 or .357Mag casings is to fill the casing up with just enough of a gap that the bullet causes about 2mm's of compression on the powder. A .357Mag casing with a 130gn lead bullet loaded this way produces a recoil similar to a fairly stout .38Spl. But it has that magical "push" that black powder is so well known for.

Those of you with .45Colt versions may want to fill 3/4's of the way with black then top it off with a little filler such as cream of wheat or the powder like oat bran. A full power .45Colt has quite the kick even with the softer push sort of recoil we get from using black powder.

You'll need to clean the barrel and cylinder at the end of the day. And before you start out clean off the smokeless gun oil and lube inside and out with Canola oil. A lot of petroleum oils will go gummy when mixed with BP fouling. The Canola oil actually keeps the fouling nice and soupy. A drop of Canola on the joint between cylinder face and arbor will keep the cylinder spinning freely all day and then some.

At the end of the day you'll have a far easier job of cleaning in warm soapy water than I do. The cap and ball "dead end" chambers are tougher to clean than the straight through cartridge cylinders. When done lube with regular gun oil. Canola is great for resisting rust but it DOES polymerize to a gummy mess in a few weeks. That's why I only use it a day at a time as the over ball lubricant and to keep the cylinder spinning freely on the arbor.

If you find you enjoy the odd day with BP rounds then consider using Ballistol as your gun oil for your open top guns. It won't gum up over time and it's BP compatible unlike some other modern gun oils.

 

[TDizzle]

Open top revolvers RULE!! So if I can help some of you enjoy and shoot them better than I feel like I've done my bit.

And the only thing more fun than shooting an open top is shooting them with "proper" black powder. It's a whole other sort of feeling and I urge you all to try it. You'll need to be set up for reloading. But if you're shooting these sort of guns you'll want to do that sooner rather than later anyway since you can save a bundle compared to buying factory ammo.

The proper charge for black powder in .38 or .357Mag casings is to fill the casing up with just enough of a gap that the bullet causes about 2mm's of compression on the powder. A .357Mag casing with a 130gn lead bullet loaded this way produces a recoil similar to a fairly stout .38Spl. But it has that magical "push" that black powder is so well known for.

Those of you with .45Colt versions may want to fill 3/4's of the way with black then top it off with a little filler such as cream of wheat or the powder like oat bran. A full power .45Colt has quite the kick even with the softer push sort of recoil we get from using black powder.

You'll need to clean the barrel and cylinder at the end of the day. And before you start out clean off the smokeless gun oil and lube inside and out with Canola oil. A lot of petroleum oils will go gummy when mixed with BP fouling. The Canola oil actually keeps the fouling nice and soupy. A drop of Canola on the joint between cylinder face and arbor will keep the cylinder spinning freely all day and then some.

At the end of the day you'll have a far easier job of cleaning in warm soapy water than I do. The cap and ball "dead end" chambers are tougher to clean than the straight through cartridge cylinders. When done lube with regular gun oil. Canola is great for resisting rust but it DOES polymerize to a gummy mess in a few weeks. That's why I only use it a day at a time as the over ball lubricant and to keep the cylinder spinning freely on the arbor.

If you find you enjoy the odd day with BP rounds then consider using Ballistol as your gun oil for your open top guns. It won't gum up over time and it's BP compatible unlike some other modern gun oils.

Awesome and informative replies! Thanks for the info! So no I just need to start shimming haha. What would you suggest is the "optimum" measurement for cylinder gap? I'll also have to do some measurements on the cylinder, because it was only difficult to pull the hammer on the 6th chamber.

 

[tiriaq]

Set the gap fairly tight, and hold the revolver with light behind it. Place the hammer on half ####, and slowly rotate the cylinder; you will see if the cylinder face gets closer to the barrel during part of the rotation.
If you look at a variety of cartridge revolvers you will note that the size of the gap does vary from gun to gun. Probably optimum would be the smallest gap that still allows free rotation, even when fouled.

 

[TDizzle]

Set the gap fairly tight, and hold the revolver with light behind it. Place the hammer on half ####, and slowly rotate the cylinder; you will see if the cylinder face gets closer to the barrel during part of the rotation.
If you look at a variety of cartridge revolvers you will note that the size of the gap does vary from gun to gun. Probably optimum would be the smallest gap that still allows free rotation, even when fouled.

Makes sense. I'll give this a try!

 

[BCRider]

The usual gap mentioned is between .004 and .008. But at least one fellow I've found on the web that is passionate about the open tops in particular and black powder revolvers in general says he prefers .002 to .003. His basis is that the small gap blows itself clear with every shot.

If you don't have a feeler gauge set it's likely high time to buy one. They aren't that expensive even for a nice one. In a pinch regular printer and photocopy paper is .004. If you set up the shim so you can just feel the paper catch but can still drag it through with a light pull then you're there.

The paper pulling trick will also aid you in spotting that high chamber. It may be that the face is a touch off kilter. Or it may be that the one chamber has a burr around the mouth. A close inspection with light of from the side can aid in seeing such a thing. It may just need to be dressed down with a fine sharpening stone and a bit of oil until the burr is cut back even with the rest of the face.

The way it catches will tell you a lot. If the chambers to each side have virtually no cylinder gap and then it catches on the one between then it suggests an off angled face. The fix for that would be removing a general skiff of material from that side of the face. A little bit of file work followed by polishing on some fine and extra fine sandpapers then some cold blue. If it's more of a ridge like burr around the mouth and which only catches as it comes under the forcing cone then something a trifle more localized and focused that removes the burr without much else is the way to go.

On the other hand it may be something at the back which rides up and holds the cylinder forward. For example check to see if the cylinder locks in position solidly and then pushes forward a hair as the hammer cocks. If the stop bolt groove is slightly out of position it can lock up the cylinder a touch "early" before the chamber fully lines up with the barrel. When that happens the hand does not fit correctly and tends to push the cylinder ahead. So it may be the stop groove is out of position. Or it may be that the hand pawl on the rear is not fitted correctly. Which it is that needs a touch of metal removed will depend on if the chamber is properly indexed in line with the barrel or if it was stopped early by the stop bolt in the groove.

So lots of things to check there. Any of which might be the issue. Start with the front face to see if it's square or has a burr. If it's not that see if you can feel the cylinder being wedged forward by the hand as you #### the hammer. It SHOULD be pushed ahead but only by the spring against the hand. You should be able to easily push the cylinder to the rear and see your gap. If it's wedged forward by the hand it's either the stop bolt groove is not correct for that chamber or the pawl on the rear for that chamber needs a touch more trimming.

You'll need to figure out how to make up or find a "range rod" which has a bore sized slug which can bridge from the barrel to the chamber's throats. If the rod fits when the stop bolt is firmly locked then it's the pawl which needs a hair off to keep it from pushing the cylinder forward with force.

 

[plinker 777]

BC Rider, another thank you for the explanations you've given. I have been following the post since yesterday when it was still on page one, and not owning an open top, I thought to myself "There you have it Plinker, what a smart fellow you are not to own a firearm with such a flawed design as to depend on how tightly you reassemble the thing as to whether or not it will operate!?" "You are correct, stay the course with your dream of one day owning the Remington- stay away from Colt's nonsense...they jam caps as well as this wedge BS." I told myself.
I was overjoyed to learn that our ancestors (who owned the real McCoy) didn't actually have to deal with the nonsense of how tight the wedge is in the frame will depend on whether or not your LIFE is in peril!?
Also, although I won't buy one of these Italian guns for these reasons, I was also glad to learn that there is a fix, and you're willing to share the information. Kudos to you BC Rider! Again, great posts.

 

[TDizzle]

I was overjoyed to learn that our ancestors (who owned the real McCoy) didn't actually have to deal with the nonsense of how tight the wedge is in the frame will depend on whether or not your LIFE is in peril!?

Very true, if my life depended on it, I wouldn't be using this handgun haha. But it's definitely a lot of fun to shoot!!!