Swiss Arms VS ACR
- Thread starter bacardi
- Start date
Brian 46
Dont care to argue about accuracy. In real life i observed the cqb as being the most consistenly accurate and most accurate of the multiple barrel lengrhs sniper included. 6 lengths (Of which there are very few in Canada).we tested 6 barrel lenghs. The sniper has a specific purpose to which its best suited. It does carry more speed to the target.
Dont care to argue about accuracy. In real life i observed the cqb as being the most consistenly accurate and most accurate of the multiple barrel lengrhs sniper included. 6 lengths (Of which there are very few in Canada).we tested 6 barrel lenghs. The sniper has a specific purpose to which its best suited. It does carry more speed to the target.
I owned every version available in green at one point including the sniper, My findings with premium factory ammo is obviously different than what you observed. The factory targets included with each rifle also show which is more accurate as tested by the factory.
It is pretty much impossible to build a free floating Swiss Arms based on its receiver design. One of the reasons why SIG Sauer Germany is unable to get Swiss Arms to modernize the line, instead they go to Sig USA and get the MCX to the French Trial. Every first and even second world military issues some form of optical sight, so free floating is important.
The best they can do is to build a free floating hand guard that bridges over the receiver top rail like the old KAC RAS2 and ARMS SIR.
The best they can do is to build a free floating hand guard that bridges over the receiver top rail like the old KAC RAS2 and ARMS SIR.
I have a Swiss Arms PE-90 target (flat top). I was able to get 1 moa at 100 with 5 rounds (slow fired) using 62 grain American Eagle. Ironically the RUAG 223 63 grain ammo I bought shot like garbage in it. 1:10 twist barrel. Granted mine came with one of the better Swiss test targets I have seen. I shoot supported by a bag just in front of the mag well. I've never used the built in bipod. I consider that more an emergency use item. Although it would be interesting to compare the difference.
No cheek weld problems when mounting optics. I previously had a Conquest 6.5-20x 50mm which worked great. I have since gone to a Burris E1 3-9X. I needed the Zeiss for a bolt action build and the Burris E1 seemed like a perfect match. Also the Hensoldt/Zeiss Z-point red dot works perfectly if wanting CQB style.
While I like my Swiss, at the time, my options were the PE-90 or the HK SL8. To get the SL8 to a non civilian version it would have cost big bucks. In fact many of the done up SL8 rifles look ACR rifles! If making the same choice today, I would likely go with the ACR.
No cheek weld problems when mounting optics. I previously had a Conquest 6.5-20x 50mm which worked great. I have since gone to a Burris E1 3-9X. I needed the Zeiss for a bolt action build and the Burris E1 seemed like a perfect match. Also the Hensoldt/Zeiss Z-point red dot works perfectly if wanting CQB style.
While I like my Swiss, at the time, my options were the PE-90 or the HK SL8. To get the SL8 to a non civilian version it would have cost big bucks. In fact many of the done up SL8 rifles look ACR rifles! If making the same choice today, I would likely go with the ACR.
In my 15 years in the military I have never been handed a C7 or C8 with a free float tube on it. Over the years I have witnessed many ridiculously tight groupings fired by my peers and have produced a few myself on occasion. A free floated rifle is not a requirement to shoot well.
If the goal is to put 10 rounds into one hole, buy a bolt gun. It's like using a claw hammer to drive fence posts, wrong tool for the job. My point is don't get wrapped around the axle because the SAN is not free floated. Take the bipod off and throw it off a cliff, you don't want anything pushing against the fore end. If you want a bipod on your rifle, buy the ACR.
Here is an average 100 yard group from a SAN with AE 55 grain. Mine will shoot around 1.5" with cheap ammo shooting off the magazine. Use match or handload and that gets better.
If the goal is to put 10 rounds into one hole, buy a bolt gun. It's like using a claw hammer to drive fence posts, wrong tool for the job. My point is don't get wrapped around the axle because the SAN is not free floated. Take the bipod off and throw it off a cliff, you don't want anything pushing against the fore end. If you want a bipod on your rifle, buy the ACR.
Here is an average 100 yard group from a SAN with AE 55 grain. Mine will shoot around 1.5" with cheap ammo shooting off the magazine. Use match or handload and that gets better.
Im not bias at all. So ACR
I will soon have both, so I will be bias free!
I'll let you guys know when I go shoot it this fall
In my 15 years in the military I have never been handed a C7 or C8 with a free float tube on it. Over the years I have witnessed many ridiculously tight groupings fired by my peers and have produced a few myself on occasion. A free floated rifle is not a requirement to shoot well.
If the goal is to put 10 rounds into one hole, buy a bolt gun. It's like using a claw hammer to drive fence posts, wrong tool for the job. My point is don't get wrapped around the axle because the SAN is not free floated. Take the bipod off and throw it off a cliff, you don't want anything pushing against the fore end. If you want a bipod on your rifle, buy the ACR.
Here is an average 100 yard group from a SAN with AE 55 grain. Mine will shoot around 1.5" with cheap ammo shooting off the magazine. Use match or handload and that gets better.
Really nice looking rifle, I dream about a Green like that, but you need a bayonet, But i don' t want the this logo on the side.
Donny Fenn1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- East Kootenays
My Swiss has been my go to coyote rifle for 15 years (or close to that). I take it any time I call somewhere new or I know I will call in multiple yotes. With the stock barrel it was good for just under 2moa (5 rounds shot fast 'cause that's what it is for). I replaced the stock barrel with the 24" sniper barrel when CSC got a few in, that basically halved my groups and let me shoot faster through more mags ( not that I do but the sniper barrel takes a long time to heat up). With the bipod up or down I notice about a one moa shift. I usually shoot off shooting sticks because I like to have the extra height and be able to pivot on moving dogs.
I have had and still have all manner of other coyote guns in bolt and caliber choice but the SA is my only semi (if anybody wants to sell me a M96 cheap I still kick myself for trading mine to Ardent).
My closest shot with the SA was around 15 yards and my furthest just under 400. I have shot 3 off the same stand numerous times because it offers the fast follow up of course, I've only ever got a triple once with a bolt.
I guess I'm trying to say buy the Swiss
100m accuracy only starts to tell the tale. I don't see many guys pushing their semi autos beyond that (probably for good reason).
SA rifles have been shot in some stiff service rifle competition against accurate ARs out to 500m and have held their own.
Anecdotes aside, the SA come with an accuracy guarantee of placing 10 rounds into a 10cm X 10cm square at 300m.
In a semi-auto, that is match quality by anyone's standard and you will pay a premium to get the ACR there.
The discussion around some of the benefits of the ACR's attributes is interesting, but only valid if one places a premium on such issues/items (An example would be the ability to slap magpul furniture on the ACR tipping the scales in it's favour).
It was noted one poster stated the ACR is ambi, and held that as an attribute over the SA - obviously they have never handled the SA or they would have realized the folly of this statement.
The magazine issue is also another interesting topic. The SA magazine and lock up is arguably superior and just as easy to manipulate as the STANAG system, but for whatever reason the 10 round capacity of AR pistol mags is seen as an overriding winning attribute. What is not mentioned is the fact several conversions are available to allow the SA to 'benefit' from their use.
As mentioned, the SA design is dated; hell, it's pushing on 40 years. I should hope the ACR has an edge, but sadly that edge is pretty thin. If you are a gun guy the SA deserves a spot on the wall/in the safe. The ACR? Meh.
SA rifles have been shot in some stiff service rifle competition against accurate ARs out to 500m and have held their own.
Anecdotes aside, the SA come with an accuracy guarantee of placing 10 rounds into a 10cm X 10cm square at 300m.
In a semi-auto, that is match quality by anyone's standard and you will pay a premium to get the ACR there.
The discussion around some of the benefits of the ACR's attributes is interesting, but only valid if one places a premium on such issues/items (An example would be the ability to slap magpul furniture on the ACR tipping the scales in it's favour).
It was noted one poster stated the ACR is ambi, and held that as an attribute over the SA - obviously they have never handled the SA or they would have realized the folly of this statement.
The magazine issue is also another interesting topic. The SA magazine and lock up is arguably superior and just as easy to manipulate as the STANAG system, but for whatever reason the 10 round capacity of AR pistol mags is seen as an overriding winning attribute. What is not mentioned is the fact several conversions are available to allow the SA to 'benefit' from their use.
As mentioned, the SA design is dated; hell, it's pushing on 40 years. I should hope the ACR has an edge, but sadly that edge is pretty thin. If you are a gun guy the SA deserves a spot on the wall/in the safe. The ACR? Meh.
I was a big acr fan boy so I bought one thinking it was the ultimate rifle
For SHFT, plinking, hunting ect. But I cant say im that impressed and heres why
Ok so in a stock 223. Rem configuration with 16" barrel its fine, other than the safety toggle being a peice of ####
And than pistol grip storage thing is cheap and falls out sometimes but over all functions great.
and a little on the heavy side but whatever.
Its no AR thats for sure and just by LOOKING at the swiss arms I can see its a superior rifle.
If magpul would of keep it, it would of gone so far and unfortunately bushmaster is just not doing anything with it.
I have mine currently chambered in x39 and its okay but I dont have
Alot of fun shooting it. My cz 858 is way more fun and lot lighter and more accurate.
But thats just my opinion im sure alot of guys have a differant view
So you want a NR acr? Sure, but thats an extra $400-$900 because bushmaster
Has done nothing as far as conversion kits, and now the rifle is front heavy where the swiss arms
Has a nice center on balance.
The bolt carrier is poorly designed in my opinion its just a solid brick adding unneeded weight.
Not a fan of quad rails myself but the magpul moe handguard is not very solid and fits a little loose.
Operating system is good but the adjustable gas block is not that user friendly.
The locking pins are kind of hard to take out, but not a big deal.
For SHFT, plinking, hunting ect. But I cant say im that impressed and heres why
Ok so in a stock 223. Rem configuration with 16" barrel its fine, other than the safety toggle being a peice of ####
And than pistol grip storage thing is cheap and falls out sometimes but over all functions great.
and a little on the heavy side but whatever.
Its no AR thats for sure and just by LOOKING at the swiss arms I can see its a superior rifle.
If magpul would of keep it, it would of gone so far and unfortunately bushmaster is just not doing anything with it.
I have mine currently chambered in x39 and its okay but I dont have
Alot of fun shooting it. My cz 858 is way more fun and lot lighter and more accurate.
But thats just my opinion im sure alot of guys have a differant view
So you want a NR acr? Sure, but thats an extra $400-$900 because bushmaster
Has done nothing as far as conversion kits, and now the rifle is front heavy where the swiss arms
Has a nice center on balance.
The bolt carrier is poorly designed in my opinion its just a solid brick adding unneeded weight.
Not a fan of quad rails myself but the magpul moe handguard is not very solid and fits a little loose.
Operating system is good but the adjustable gas block is not that user friendly.
The locking pins are kind of hard to take out, but not a big deal.
Good to know!!!!!
In what way is the SA better than the ACR just from looking at it? I won't disagree that it's pretty heavy but I don't find it to be too heavy to carry around and use in the field. I've owned both rifles (still have an ACR). I kept the ACR because of the caliber conversion ability and I find it to be a more ergonomic rifle. The 300BLK conversion I built for it regularly shoots sub moa with handloads and judging by the groups I see with AE black box from my 223 barrel I'm sure I'll see moa or better from premium ammo or handloads.
If you wanted performance from your rifle you shouldn't have gone with x39, that is old surplus crap that you really shouldn't have much for expectations shooting, it is a good round for plinking and general blasting but it's not for accuracy and since not every barrel likes ammo the same as the one next to it you got lucky with your cz and unlucky with your conversion barrel.
$400-$900? You can still end up with a NR ACR for less than a SA. If you want a NR ACR there is no point buying a new rifle since you will be replacing the barrel anyway which means you can get one for just over $2000 then add a new NR barrel and be shooting for under $3000. Good luck finding a used SA for that price.
The bolt carrier design is not that uncommon, my AR180B is quite similar and so are a few other rifles. Sure it could have been lighter but those things are why the rifle shoots so smoothly. Not sure if you've noticed but the SA also has a pretty heavy bolt and carrier and the rifle is also quite heavy. It's also why guys buy heavy buffers for their AR.
The adjustable gas block? Settings are suppressed and unsuppressed so when exaclty are you going to need to adjust it? I've never had a problem removing it for cleaning so to me I find no problem with it. I would like it if there was a different regulator that had one setting for standard and one setting for hot ammo instead. Some of the guys in the US have said there is one but Gravel Agency has never heard of it so it's not available to us.
I liked my SA but it had a couple quirks I didn't like. It is definitely a well designed and built rifle but mine had a huge POI shift depending how you supported it which I could never accept. I do think the SA mags are better quality and more reliable than a STANAG magazine and think guys are silly to spend money to convert their rifle to use AR mags. The money spent doing that would be better used buying more SA magazines.
They are both great rifles but both do different things better than the other, a person really needs to handle and shoot both then decide for themselves which one suits them better. Everyone values different attributes so everyone will feel one is better than the other for different reasons.
One thing that I don't like is when someone owns one rifle but has never fired the others then rants about how his rifle is better. If someone has never fired the rifles he's saying his is better than then his opinion means nothing. There's nothing wrong with liking what you have but don't try to tell others it's better than the other options if you've never shot the other rifles (This is not directed at you or anyone specifically, just a statement).
If anyone in the Edmonton area wants to try an ACR let me know and we can try to line up a day we can meet and you can run a few mags through mine. Everyone I've let shoot it so far has loved it and commented on how smooth it is.
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onetwentyish
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- East Central AB (AKA Northern Texas)
Mike, check CSC.
