Hodgdon 45-70 loads hot?

aric84

aric84

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After reading the ongoing thread about the cartridge and a good link and the ballistics I started to look at my manuals to see where one writer was getting 2400fps with. 300gr bullet out of a lever.

Lee, hornady, accurate and lyman all topped out at around 2100fps for a 300gr projecrile but that's about where Hodgdon starts and goes up to 2400fps with IMR4198.

Are the other guys just being shy or is Hodgdon really confident in loading hot? I'm planning to put together some hunting loads for a Miroku 1886 and a Marling guide gun.

Anyone have luck reaching these published velocities?
 
With 350 hornadys I hit book velocity with h4198 easily out of an 18.5" guide gun. I never tried pushing 300s but in a strong action and with a bit more barrel I think its possible.
 
Thanks,

I'm hoping to have a load to use in either of them with the 300's just for hunting. According to the article between about the 2100 to 2400 range is ideal for a good bit of shock with without zipping right through like they would with a lower velocity and not expanding properly.

I'm sure it should be no problem getting the velocity out of the '86 but I'll need to get a slip on pad for the crescent or just learn to shoot it properly during load development.

Good to know that the 350's we able to reach velocity out of a guide gun, did you ever get to see how they performed on game at those speeds?

In case anyone is interested, here is the link:

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.45-70+U.S+Government.html
 
I also use 350 Hornaday's and H4198. I'm loading a bit more than the minimum listed (which is 48.5gr) and a few grains less than their listed max which is 54gr. The published velocity spread between the two is about 150fps. So, with my load, I figure I'm clocking around 2100fps. It hits pretty hard on both ends, so I see no need to batter myself further for the sake of another 90fps out of a rifle that is used in thick Ontario bush. From what I can tell, Hornady seems pretty confident in their bullets as their numbers for the 350 also seem to be higher than some other sources of data.

ETA: I don't think you need worry too much with regard to expansion in the .45-70. It penetrates like a gamma ray burst through Class M planets. A good .458" bullet through the boiler room is devastating.
 
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I never hunted with the .45-70, it was my bush gun for bear. I did fire them into blocks of wood at close range. Retained weight was 326 grs and diameter was around .850". I had no doubts in the load.
 
I'm certainly not worried about power to shred organs that's for sure. Just from experience I've had a challenger slug pencil through deer and although it hit the lungs an completely shredded them, doe still ran 50m into a swamp.

What I'm hoping for is a good enough impact in the boiler room shot that the deer will more likely be stunned and kind of stagger as opposed to run. It will cost some meat but I hate having to track deer through swamps and thorns.

Maybe I'm just being wishful or fanciful, but it will be interesting to try and match the results of the article.
 
We have those who state: "Use only published loads!"; and others "They're just a guideline - watch for pressure signs!". Now: "Use only some published Loads!"? Who's to say that this particular load is "hot"? It is as stated by Hodgdon.

Published loads are pressure tested and run over a chronograph and the results are what was achieved that day with that brass, bullet, primer, powder lot, at that OAL, and in that barrel of that gun. The chrony and pressure testing equipment had their own margins of error, so it's not exact! Even if you use every detail of a published load, and lop your barrel off to the same length, you shouldn't expect to get the exact MV listed, nor should you expect to be at the exact pressure listed. You can easily vary +/- 10% on both MV and pressure. That's why "Max Loads" are well below "Proof Loads" for the various firearms.

I have often loaded below max because my chrony and brass told me to, and I've gone over by a few grains as well. The problem with "Pressure Signs" are that most are subjective and notoriously unreliable, and the others only appear at pressures above 60K psi, which is of no help with relatively low pressure loadings like the 45-70 as used in Lever Guns.
 
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Excellent point Andy. It is always in my mind that there are a lot of variables at play and there is some margin of error in any measurement. I work in manufacturing and am well aware of safety margins with some of the work we do.

As for signs of trouble that was the one I was worried about since the 45-70 is a fairly low pressure load the "typical" pressure signs are likely to manifest beyond what the action and case can likely handle.

I'll try the hornady loads out as I believe they have done enough testing to establish safe levels.
 
The 45-70 is one of the most under loaded calibers, the only one i can think that is similar is the 7x57. It has been around for what, about 140 years, and there are a lot of old and weak actions out there. Modern guide guns and the OP's reproduction 1886 are certainly capable of handling much more enthusiastic handloads. Factory ammo, and to a lesser degree loading information tends to be lawyered down and conservative.

Even so, what is accomplished by pushing it to dangerous levels. It will still not be a 458wm. Most projectiles designed for the 45-70 expand just fine at low velocity. Here is a excellent article on the terminal performance of 45-70 factory ammo, and reloaded projectiles.

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.45-70+U.S+Government.html
 
aric84 said:
I'm certainly not worried about power to shred organs that's for sure. Just from experience I've had a challenger slug pencil through deer and although it hit the lungs an completely shredded them, doe still ran 50m into a swamp.

What I'm hoping for is a good enough impact in the boiler room shot that the deer will more likely be stunned and kind of stagger as opposed to run. It will cost some meat but I hate having to track deer through swamps and thorns.

Maybe I'm just being wishful or fanciful, but it will be interesting to try and match the results of the article.
Click to expand...

Unless you have a crystal ball, there is no way you can predict how a specific deer will specifically react to being hit in a specific spot with a specific load on a specific day. If your deer are only going 50 yards before falling down, then you have done a good job of things.:d
 
Chuckbuster said:
Unless you have a crystal ball, there is no way you can predict how a specific deer will specifically react to being hit in a specific spot with a specific load on a specific day. If your deer are only going 50 yards before falling down, then you have done a good job of things.:d
Click to expand...

Yea, I don't know why, but I've had deer hit in the same place, at the same distance and with the same load, "bang-flop" some years and run 50m or so, stagger and fall other years.
 
True about being unppredictable, my uncle's hunting group has had lots of runners with good shot placement(one even took a full load of 00buck at 5 yards in the boiler and took hours to tract down. Same shooter had a deer the year before DRT with a single pellet.

Ideally the shot I tend to take the last couple of times has been high lung shot with the intent of also shocking the spinal cord. My last buck was hit about 8 inches below the back, through both lungs. He literally sat down when his rear legs were paralyzed and expired shortly after without moving. This was with a 10ML and 240gr XTP at somewhere between 1800 and 2000fps.

That is why I want to try and duplicate the ballistics mentioned. I'm a patient hunter and make my shots count.
 
Unless you make a CNS hit on a deer, there is NO guarantee that they will not run for a bit.

A couple of years ago, I shot a little WT buck [3x3] directly through the lungs, broadside.
The bullet cut all the bloods vessels off the top of his heart. He ran like he had been stung by a bee.
A 60 yard dash, and then he just piled up in mid-stride and slid 20 feet in the snow.

I did a similar thing several years ago with my 270 on a decent sized Muley doe. She was absolutely
broadside when I smoked her through the lungs with a 130 grain partition. She took off, flat out,
until she ran into the barb-wire fence at the edge of the field. Her run was about 75 yards. When she
hit the fence, she dropped, stone dead.

In contrast, 3 years ago, I shot a 4x4 muley buck at 345 yards with my 6BR. [90 Scirocco II at 3000 fps MV]
It passed through his lungs, hitting a rib on entry and exit. He dropped like a stone and didn't even kick.

There is absolutely no way to know what will happen to the animal unless you hit the spine, or brain them.
[braining not recommended unless you are very close, BTW]

Regards, Dave.
 
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